Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[KizuyaKatogami]

*snip*

Honestly i don’t even want to get into the moral debate in yet another thread so all i’m gonna say is this. I find it funny when people call out the supposed “hypocrisy” of the antagonists but then gloss over protagonist issues. For example, a very popular protagonist is Graha. There are a lot of problematic things surrounding him as a character. His plot armor, the plot holes created just to try and keep him alive multiple times. The hypocrisy and double standard surrounding the entire ironworks situation. The hypocrisy and double standard surrounding the soul transference of Exarch into Graha. I never hear these things mentioned in regards to him. I only see people praise him for being an uwu cute sweet cinnamon roll. Let’s not forget the genocide the WoL has done either between the beast tribes, various animals, diadem even noting upon this with an entire animal race becoming extinct due to us and our adventuring antics. Regardless, i don’t hold anything against the people who enjoy the characters, and i certainly wouldn’t describe it as “inappropriate”. That’s just crazy lol.

[Theodric]

We can certainly agree to disagree on the matter of character morality within the story - especially when the writers themselves have stated that it's a matter of perspective.

To me, the antagonists are generally more interesting and sympathetic because they have actual stakes and suffer losses more deeply. I'm inherently more invested in a fantasy race that cannot use magic in a setting overly reliant on it. I'm also inherently more invested in a race that lost everything and seeks to restore what once was. I find such elements intriguing - far more so than the rather bland hero worship of a character who would be dead a thousand times already if not for the super special powers bestowed upon him.

That doesn't mean that there aren't characters among the protagonists that I like, either. Though since they're not under near constant attack around these parts and so many threads are related to narrow elements of the game's narrative they aren't brought up as often.

It's also debatable as to whether the flaws of non-human fantasy races are actually 'flaws' so much as labels tacked on by those insisting on treating non-human fantasy races as if they need to conform to modern day real world morality and/or the morality of mortal races. Which, in itself, is something that has come to make the fantasy genre increasingly stale in my view. Personally I've always been a fan of the longer lived races and/or those who fight tooth and nail in an effort to reclaim what was once theirs.

Of course, very little of this has anything to do with the actual subject of the thread - Zenos. Of which I suppose there won't be anything fresh to discuss about him until the full trailer is released on Saturday and we get the second batch of MSQ's with the upcoming patch in late May.

[_Koneko_]

are you using the argument that because other characters are morally flawed its fine to like hades the mass murdering psychopath who makes his grandson look almost sane in compare? none of the ascians have a moral high ground they lost that when they murdered billions for their own selfish agenda the warrior of light has ever acted for the good of the realm its tragic how the city states acts towards the beast tribes but once again the ascians made those tribes a target by teaching them how to summon primals becoming a threat for the whole world if left unchecked

[KizuyaKatogami]

are you using the argument that because other characters are morally flawed its fine to like hades the mass murdering psychopath who makes his grandson look almost sane in compare? none of the ascians have a moral high ground they lost that when they murdered billions for their own selfish agenda the warrior of light has ever acted for the good of the realm its tragic how the city states acts towards the beast tribes but once again the ascians made those tribes a target by teaching them how to summon primals becoming a threat for the whole world if left unchecked

I don’t really label him as a psychopath. He’s fighting for his own friends and family. So yes that’s exactly what i’m saying. People preach about morals yet when it comes to the protags they turn a blind eye. Also the WoL has ever acted for the good of the realm? Is that why we slaughter a group of Qiqirn in the Drk quests? Or goad a nobleman into attacking us and then killing him and relishing in his blood? Yeah exactly. It’s not really a selfish agenda when it’s also to rejoin the shards which, the devs have stated are unstable and the sundering was a very bad event. You talk about how many they’ve murdered yet don’t bring up how many people Hydaelyn murdered when she sundered life forms and turned them mortal. The devs themselves state this isn’t a black and white evil or good story. Both sides have their ups and downs it’s a matter of perspective. I’m keen to believe yknow, the writers of the actual story and game over some random people who think otherwise.

[Theodric]

are you using the argument that because other characters are morally flawed its fine to like hades

Yes, it's fine to like Hades. Why wouldn't it be? He's a fictional character in a fictional setting. He isn't real. Nothing he has done has led to any actual consequences in the real world.

Though we're once again getting into the unpleasant territory where some people are painting the like or dislike of specific characters as 'right' or 'wrong'. Which is pretty unsettling, really! I merely come here to discuss the lore and share theories about where the story might go in the future. I don't know why so many around these parts try to make subjective elements of the game's lore into something to 'win'.

[Bright-Flower]

It's also possible to like a character while thinking that character is in the wrong. Liking a character is not an admission to agreeing with their actions or worldview.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's also possible to like a character while thinking that character is in the wrong. Liking a character is not an admission to agreeing with their actions or worldview.

Right. But i also don’t think there’s a problem if someone does agree with their actions. Especially when the game devs themselves say they expect people to have different sides and perspectives and they encourage it. People need to remember it’s a fictional world lol. The characters in it are pixels. It’s like all the harassment i’ve seen when people say they like Garlemald and it’s characters. People take it so seriously.

[Ramesses]

I keep forgetting to post in this thread-- until just now when Amelia started asking me a couple lore items regarding the Garlean imperial family.

Let's be brutally honest-- if not Zenos-- then who is worthy enough to be the big bad? I'll say this for the umpteenth time on these forums-- I absolutely love Zenos. This game has always needed such an antithesis character since 1.0 and we got him-- and if you had any doubts about it, go watch the Endwalker trailer-- chappie looks spectacularly spiffy on that throne.

Allow me to clarify my justifications for this--

First, during one of the interviews in 2016 or early 2017 that Yoshi held prior to Stormblood's release, he mentioned that he really wanted Zenos to be a character that players would not sympathize with, and see him as a true villain (I'll have to do several extensive searches to find the media links, sources etc... but this was a well known fact at the time).

In the past, the Dev team had given us Gaius, Emet and a few other antagonists who were sort of "grey", complicated, and not pure evil... even Nael who dropped Bahamut on our heads found some sympathy. As such, as I understand it, the team developed Zenos to be unflinchingly evil, yet in a charming way that made one like the guy as a pure villain. He was vain, arrogant, unruffled, had presence like a true prince, and was just downright badness (and he even repeatedly justifies his badness)... these are some of the elements I completely liked about him because the game needed such a character.

The real clincher was that his voice acting in all the various languages were delivered quite brilliantly. The English accent used by his voice actor (Luke Allen-Gale) is called the "Received Pronunciation"...also called the "RP" accent. Some people also call it "Queen's English" -- in reference to the Queen of England but there is a very subtle, almost unnnoticable difference. All in all, the RP accent is a very posh, deliberate, precise and clipped manner of English speaking... in the old days, it was --and still is in certain exclusive circles-- the traditionally aristocratic style of English speech.

Since we are on the subject of Zeno's style of speaking, I shall give similar examples of other characters in games who speak with (or close to) the RP accent, off the top of my head,

• Vayne Solidor of FFXII
• Prince Maximillian of Valkyrie Chronicles... this chap had style, I highly recommend playing this game
• And if you haven't played either of these games, just think of Jeremy Iron's voice as Scar in the original Lion King.

Speaking of Vayne Solidor, that is one Final Fantasy "villain" that some people like to compare Zenos to-- and they make a simple crucial mistake:

• Vayne: astute, clever, specific-outcomes thinker, calculating.
• Zenos: astute, clever, specific-outcomes thinker, calculating monster.

That's the critical part I love about him-- he's unapologically evil and ravels in being a monster because it is the only way he can experience excitement. Let's examine his background-- Zenos is fourth generation imperial royalty and as such, his arrogance, military aptitude, and eloquence is not just required; its demanded of him. No real matrilineal upbringing, lost his trust with his relatives from an early age, and had his first assassination attempt by age fourteen-- his environment had essentially nurtured him into a ruthless tool-- of course he's unhinged.

Assuming that he had a wonderful, bright, wholesome, and sunny upbringing, we might have seen a character like this... (artwork of Zenos by Kugelcruor)



But we don't-- we have a coldly menacing, cunning, sly, imperial prince who has his sights on evolving possibly into a vessel for Zordiark. And bloody heck, the lad's been busy-- look at how he committed regicide, a move I jokingly predicted but it still happened in stunning fashion-- an irony, considering that Varis wanted a capable heir, and he ended up with a heir that was too capable. He would have been the perfect son that Varis needed at his side to thwart the Ascian's machinations but he had failed to properly nurture the kid and eventually abhorred the monster he became due to inadequate adult supervision. This dramatic irony has always been one that I've particularly really liked about their father-son dynamics-- and it pushes forward the narrative on the "evil" (for want of a better word) happenings that keeps Zenos busy while also creating a perfect dichotomy for if the Garleans get a Larsa-like character (Nerva?). There needs to be a character that creates absolute chaos so as to truly exhibit the motivations for order by a noble-driven character-- it's one of the most basic foundations of decent storytelling.

And by the Twelve, our boy Zenos boy has actually been busy creating chaos-- the brief cutscenes at the end of every patch usually gives a false impression that he hasn't been doing much-- a clever ploy by the Dev team-- but look closely. He's fanned the flames of civil unrest, slayed his way around the imperial palace and built a new gnarled one in it's place --I'm loving the Mhachi-style hideous architecture by the way. He's also been seen lounging on different thrones-- one of which is likely within the research facility where the Resonance evolved; he's been potentially working on the towers, plus he may (or may not) have been recovering from all the body hopping he performed-- by the way, didn't Emet once mention that body hopping takes a toll?

For a chap who exhibits a massive case of ennui, I'd say he's been quite busy stirring the pot to be reunited with us, his one true love.

And as I said on the forums ages ago, I thoroughly liked it that he trashed us twice to embarrassing levels... because we had reached the point in the Hero or Heroine's Journey (a type of stage in narrative) whereby we needed to evolve yet again. Since 1.0, we have been sent on adventure missions, fetch quests, dungeon crawls and even had to face super weird oysters in Sastasha or Shopshae... and we always win.

As with many things in life, if there are no real challenges then there won't be any evolution to surpass one's limits-- it was time for the WoL to either evolve or digress into dull complacency. Zenos is the character with the resources, prowess, reputation, and scheming capacity to be a worthy rival to the WoL-- he provided that necessary challenge that gave the WoL the necessary wake up call to keep evolving. People mentioning the possibility for Zenos to redeem himself in a solid way to atone for the numerous lives he destroyed during his quest to find the ultimate challenge (and for those lives lost during his resonant experimentations) is very far fetched but not impossible as a possible future plot twist. But if you don't like Zenos, then who-- pray tell-- would you like to be the big bad? I'm genuinely curious to see plausible suggestions-- no, seriously.

Understand that this lad manufactured his own Echo-- the Resonant-- and he boldly underlines the Garlean doctrine of not relying on the power of Twelve, but instead on the technology and the innate capacity of man to develop innovations for his evolution. This creates a separate avenue of thought as to how the Hydaelyn and Zodiark could play out-- with Zenos possibly in a prime position to snatch either one of their ethereal powers for himself.

I like Zenos... a lot... always have. I even ranted my frustrations on these very forums back in 2017 when I thought he was dead because I saw it as a pure waste of a truly great villain (yes, we were all wrong on that account). But he's back in the spotlight and ready to burn down the whole freaking house (or maybe save it?)-- and I love it.



Artwork above by Athena

[Vyrerus]

I very much want a 1v1 solo instance against Zenos again, but this time with him in his own body, and with us as the victor. I'm looking forward to beating his @$$!

[KizuyaKatogami]

*mega snip*

I have to be honest, i am not a fan of Zenos. In fact he’s probably my least favorite ff villain of all time lol. My hate started in SB when he somehow beat us without a sweat. It just felt like very wonky power scaling imo that we didn’t even put up a fight against him. He was a fairly good villain for SB overall i’d say though, he fit the narrative quite well. My problem with him is when he was brought back. In my mind there was absolutely no reason to do so. He’s a very shallow character to me with his one goal of just wanting to fight us to feel again. I got even more annoyed with him after he ended up killing Varis, someone with much more plot capability and development than him. The salt in the wound was seeing what they had did with Elidibus in 5.3(only giving the character who had been in the story since 2.0, 2 patches to shine). Yet Zenos gets to be around for 3 expansions yeah okay. Honesty we’ve had what, 6 fights against Zenos now?Thats honestly ridiculous and i’m really hoping he gets offed relatively early in the new expansion. As for who could take over or be the big bad i mean, Fandaniel is much more interesting to me. Seeing that Zenos has barely done anything on screen i’d say Fandaniel would be fine by himself. But virtually anyone could really fit the role, just not Zenos. He just feels like a piece of stale cardboard that keeps coming back over and over again.