DPS who pull mobs

[Alaray]

Personally I don't see it in dungeons unless the tank is new/learning or going slow in general. It's also usually a DPS that has 1+ tanks maxed and I guess still wants to control the party. I can get wanting things to go quicker but at the end of the day, it should be up to the tank to control the flow. It's the same as pulling too much for a newbie healer. Like God forbid you get thrown into a party with a new tank and healer, with a DPS trying to play budget tank.

Ultimately, it's a video game. I was taught how to properly tank dungeons by a SCH who told me in Sirensong Sea during early StB to "pull everything, push a cool down, and if you die it's on me." I was definitely new, and in a team oriented game playing to learn what'll be expected of you in future teams is an important way to learn how to perform in a role. Since, frankly, any job in this game can tank single pulls. You don't learn anything doing that. Healers who are new, should learn how to heal a tank doing a big pull (and I mean, especially with WAR at endgame, you basically don't need to heal them if they know what they're doing). OGCDs + GCDs if required are often going to be plenty and, if you're spamming Benefic II until you're out of MP and the tank drops dead with all your other tools expended, odds are either they screwed up for lacking mitigation to help the healer spread out their tools, or the DPS aren't doing something correct.

Will you wipe? Yeah, when you learn things you usually make a dog's breakfast of it until you get it down. That's part of learning. If someone blows up for you for a mistake when learning, kick em. But someone blowing up for expecting perfection, or someone else refusing to cooperate with the team at the baseline expectation of play down the line, are both kick-worthy things.

[Baxcel]

I was taught how to properly tank dungeons by a SCH who told me in Sirensong Sea during early StB to "pull everything, push a cool down, and if you die it's on me."

You were taught wrong for general play.. you were taught what that healer wanted which is correct.. if your a tank ask your healer what they want.. if they say nothing or whatever pull however you feel..

[Miracle_Diva]

You were taught wrong for general play.. you were taught what that healer wanted which is correct.. if your a tank ask your healer what they want.. if they say nothing or whatever pull however you feel..

"You were taught wrong which is correct"
So was he/she taught the wrong or right thing in the end?

[Alaray]

You were taught wrong for general play.. you were taught what that healer wanted which is correct.. if your a tank ask your healer what they want.. if they say nothing or whatever pull however you feel..

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

I don't need to ask a healer if they're cool with big pulls in Matoya's or Hero's. Why? Because they could literally be a third DPS and I'll be fine. It doesn't require high level play to do this, either. Just base knowledge of what you're doing. Which you learn by being taught, ideally, as a new player how to do that early on. Which is, again, why I tell new players to do a large pull and rotate through their cooldowns to extend the protection they provide for you. Or why I'll request a DPS who is only doing single target in an AoE pull, to AoE. Or why standing around on WHM only waiting to push "Cure II" is a hindrance to your party, because Holy stuns and essentially provides Hallowed Ground-level of mitigation since nothing can take any actions for a duration while you start doing it.

To intentionally slow down a run because someone doesn't want to really participate in the content isn't a playstyle. This is a team game, if you don't want to be part of a team, then run with trusts because AI teammates have no cares left to give.

[NekoHina]

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

....lTo intentionally slow down a run because someone doesn't want to really participate in the content isn't a playstyle. This is a team game, if you don't want to be part of a team, then run with trusts because AI teammates have no cares left to give.

I have played this game from the beta and have to disagree. This whole wall to wall pull is a not a given nor was it intended. In fact, when players first began finding ways of pushing packs further, SE put in gates and boundaries so that packs and trash had to handled. So to say that if you not doing this a certain way, then you are griefing is just baloney. There are plenty of reasons for doing pack and wall to wall. It is a team game and that does not work for everyone.

On the subject of who pulls, if everyone did their own job then the dungeon would be smooth regardless. DPS should not pull mobs that is a tank’s job.

For the record, I do not play a tank and I do not mind big pulls as a healer or as a DPS. I do mind when people do not play their roles.

[Alaray]

I have played this game from the beta and have to disagree. This whole wall to wall pull is a not a given nor was it intended. In fact, when players first began finding ways of pushing packs further, SE put in gates and boundaries so that packs and trash had to handled. So to say that if you not doing this a certain way, then you are griefing is just baloney. There are plenty of reasons for doing pack and wall to wall. It is a team game and that does not work for everyone.

On the subject of who pulls, if everyone did their own job then the dungeon would be smooth regardless. DPS should not pull mobs that is a tank’s job.

For the record, I do not play a tank and I do not mind big pulls as a healer or as a DPS. I do mind when people do not play their roles.

I've played since beta, too - it's not a point of credibility, honestly.

Nowadays with how dungeons are designed, there's no drawback to not going wall to wall (especially in Expert Roulette, since those dungeons hit way weaker than leveling dungeons and there's no real variability in gear -- you have a minimum to hit and that minimum is more than enough). Doesn't matter if the devs intended it or not, it's become a general expectation because (ultimately speaking) it's easy to do and single pulls are more of a strain on party resources. There's no real, conceivable, reason why one would not do it -- except for feeling nervous to try it out, or if other members of your party are worse (ie: DPS doing single target rotations in AoE, a "I only Heal" healer). And the best solution to nerves is, just, honestly communicating that and seeing if the party would like you to try anyway, while understanding you might mess up. But outside of initial anxiety, or not understanding how the game operates, I can't think of a reason to not perform the basic function of your role in the content (and, no, "I'm eating food while watching Netflix" isn't a reason).

In leveling dungeons gear becomes a component, but usually, even tanks in really bad gear can do a large pull if they utilize their CD's (which I'll request anyway if I notice they aren't using them -- and, I mean, I kept a no-CD paladin alive in harder hitting leveling dungeons who pulled wall to wall wearing Scaevan in Abania intermixed with some lesser items). That said, I've never had someone (sprout or returner, or mentor crown-wearing player) say "that sucked" after coaching them through what they're supposed to be doing when they pull multiple packs. Most people tend to be surprised it was fun, and if I'm healing that run, I'll put the responsibility of a wipe on myself instead of them to ease the anxiety of making a mistake. Sometimes a new tank trying it out will die, that's okay. It's a game, let people learn and here or there and sometimes they will die while learning.

The contentious point of "single pulls is fine" is okay in games where dungeons are actually difficult, or require some thought in what to pull/how to pull it/where to pull it/what the pack's mechanics are and what the current resources in the party are. But in this game, dungeons don't really do anything. They're a hallway with a couple packs of mobs that generally pose very little actual threat, with maybe a pack or two every other dungeon having 1 mob that will do a tankbuster (which the tank should already be mitigating by using CD's in these pulls, but a WHM Holy or a DPS paying attention, or even a tank paying attention, can usually stun those casts).

It's not like sac-runs in Aurum Vale, there's no secret tech, there's no higher thought process going on other than: hit a cooldown. When it expires, hit another cooldown. Which is the base expectation I have of any tank since that's literally what they're there to do (that, and contributing to damage). I won't be a dick about it, but if I put out "We should pull more packs of mobs, and it'll be fine so long as you rotate through your Cooldowns" and am met with a passive aggressive "I decide the pace of the run" or whatever, I'll initiate a votekick, or I'll just dip. I've hit my personal limit on passive aggressiveness in DF, I'm not really willing to babysit an adult high schooler.

[Baxcel]

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

I don't need to ask a healer if they're cool with big pulls in Matoya's or Hero's. Why? Because they could literally be a third DPS and I'll be fine. It doesn't require high level play to do this, either. Just base knowledge of what you're doing. Which you learn by being taught, ideally, as a new player how to do that early on. Which is, again, why I tell new players to do a large pull and rotate through their cooldowns to extend the protection they provide for you. Or why I'll request a DPS who is only doing single target in an AoE pull, to AoE. Or why standing around on WHM only waiting to push "Cure II" is a hindrance to your party, because Holy stuns and essentially provides Hallowed Ground-level of mitigation since nothing can take any actions for a duration while you start doing it.

To intentionally slow down a run because someone doesn't want to really participate in the content isn't a playstyle. This is a team game, if you don't want to be part of a team, then run with trusts because AI teammates have no cares left to give.

And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

[Alaray]

And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.

[Baxcel]

I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.

No you didn't but I didn't say you did.. I was mentioning why I have that mentality..

New to a class, new to a dungeon, and dungeon tied to the MSQ( it was The Burn, when it was new). Telling someone your new, and that you'd prefer to go slower to see everything.. to find the hidden chests or whatever is laying around.. to get the mapping thr realm achevements, just because a dps wants to zip across all content new and old dosnt mean everyone else wants to..

I'm here for the story for the lore for everything that makes this game a final fantasy game.. I don't wanna skip or rush it all.. the story is what's important and if you wanna dead rush to the end and be bored for the next 5 months thats on you.. but I won't let someone make me do it that way and a vast majority of tanks an healers won't let people do it that way.

You talk about coddling the healers and tanks.. well it's coddling the dps when we have to save your butts because your not playing your class correctly and pulling enemies.

[Liam_Harper]

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

The important distinction here is endgame dungeons. Because many people just read something like this, expect it means every dungeon in the game and overreact immediately.

Leveling dungeons and leveling cap dungeons (50, 60, 70, 80) are a different boat entirely. In particular, dungeons like Matoya's and Hero's Gauntlet are absolute jokes compared to something like Holminster or huge Aurum Vale pulls with some first timers. Some leveling dungeons it's reasonable to pull 2-3 packs if you're keeping a good pace because they actually can hit like trucks. It's strange design that it starts harder while leveling, then becomes more faceroll as you reach max level, but that's the way it is.