Make tenacity great

[Kabooa]

No, I'm saying that's what it should do. If your ilvl goes up, your percentage lifesteal (or self-sustain/shielding alternative) should go up independent of the damage that you do, with diminishing returns, of course. I also think that you need some degree of transparency with all this (i.e. when you select a piece of gear for comparison, you should be able to see what those stat boosts are translating into in terms of damage per second, self-healing percentage, damage reduction, and so on).

I mean, you can hand out self-sustain and mitigation options like Bloodbath and such to dps jobs, but at the end of the day, tanks need to be the ones who see proportionately higher gains to those abilities with gear. Much like you get to see higher dps gains with gear than tanks do.

So from 430 to 530, what should %based abilities such as The Blackest Night and Nascent Flash begin and end at?

How much should the potency healing skills scale by?

What should your start and ending passive Mitigation% be?

[Lyth]

Sure. Give me the damage formula that the development team uses as well as their simulation toolkit, and I'll just pop in a few rough values into my calculator.

But what is the relevance of these questions?

[Kabooa]

Sure. Give me the damage formula that the development team uses as well as their simulation toolkit, and I'll just pop in a few rough values into my calculator.

But what is the relevance of these questions?

You don't need a calculator or a simulator to answer these questions.

The relevance is they deal directly with how much damage enemies need to do and how much healers are expected to heal.

I'll give you some sample numbers to illustrate this.

Tanks at 430 had about 110,000 HP. At 530, they sit around 190,000 (Rounded for ease).

TBN currently shields for 25% of maximum health. 27,500 to 47,500. The amount it protects already scales up with gear.

If we add separate scaling, at half the rate that HP increases (So instead of 25%, it shields for 35%), it instead shields for 66,500.

Likewise, Abyssal Drain is a drain effect. It deals 200 damage and heals 100% of that amount. It scales with damage.

If the lifedrain also increases, then it deals 200 damage and drains for 270 using the same "1/2 of HP increase" (72% increase of HP, 36% increase of healing related stuff).

Soul Eater heals for 300 damage, increased to 400 with this scaling.

All healing on tanks is approximately 72% more effective compared to the other roles.

This is without factoring in additional cooldowns for mitigation.

[MagiusNecros]

They will make Tenacity great like they did with Parry and Accuracy. By removing it altogether.

[Lyth]

...

It's irrelevant because players never see 'true damage' prior to filters of stats and gear. The numbers and scaling can be whatever you want them to be.

Gear progression can be inconsequential or impactful. What does matter is when a player picks up that piece of gear and has a sense that they're actually hitting harder and that their actions are having more of an effect. That's a subjective experience that you can't math out, yet has a much bigger impact on player engagement than whether or not NF provides 12.3% more healing than Bloodbath. When dps gear upgrades consistently feel like they have impact, and tank and healer gear upgrades consistently do not, then your tank and healer numbers decline. Again, this is why listening to your playerbase's feedback is important, especially the roles that you are having difficulty retaining.

[Kabooa]

Gear progression can be inconsequential or impactful. What does matter is when a player picks up that piece of gear and has a sense that they're actually hitting harder and that their actions are having more of an effect. That's a subjective experience that you can't math out.

Not only are we able to math it out, dedicated individuals do math it out. To claim one role has impactful progression but another doesn't is false. Jobs have different starting points, but nearly all scale at the same rate - because they are all subject to the same basic formula.

If we included new tiers at this level bracket with no other job changes, those same individuals could tell you where exactly each job should be after its all said and done, and for the laymen like you and I, that range will be between 15-20%.

Potentially higher based on where substats end up, but every single job that can end at those break points will see the same range of increase.

[Lyth]

You can calculate whether or not any given player will feel satisfied that their gear upgrades have impact??

This is a surprisingly deep hole that you are digging. The entire point of this thread is that tanks are coming back and are telling you that the present system of stat progression and gear progression on tanks still feels inadequate, especially compared to dps jobs. "Er, according to my calculations, all of you actually really enjoy stacking stats like parry and tenacity. Let me punch these, er, figures, back into my graphing calculator and recheck." No. We really don't.

[Kabooa]

You can calculate whether or not any given player will feel satisfied that their gear upgrades have impact??

This is a surprisingly deep hole that you are digging. The entire point of this thread is that tanks are coming back and are telling you that the present system of stat progression and gear progression on tanks still feels inadequate, especially compared to dps jobs. "Er, according to my calculations, all of you actually really enjoy stacking stats like parry and tenacity. Let me punch these, er, figures, back into my graphing calculator and recheck." No. We really don't.

If 15-20% is impactful for DPS, then 15-20% is impactful for Tanks.

But frankly, if you're not willing to answer some simple questions, there's no point cluttering this thread further.

The least you can do with your final jab is complete my bingo card.

[Absurdity]

Except it isn't because tank damage calculation itself is a joke. +15-20% of nothing is still nothing and unfortunately damage is the only thing that has any impact, in terms of defense you can easily survive any bossfight in minimum ilvl gear.

Sure, mathematically we're getting the same % increase but this isn't about calculated increases but about how it feels to upgrade your gear and the feeling is absolutely lackluster.


I'd actually argue that even for dps the substats are rather lackluster, the only thing that makes it feel more impactful on dps than on tanks (or healers for that matter) is the fact that they're working with bigger numbers to begin with.

[Kabooa]

Except it isn't because tank damage calculation itself is a joke. +15-20% of nothing is still nothing and unfortunately damage is the only thing that has any impact, in terms of defense you can easily survive any bossfight in minimum ilvl gear.

Sure, mathematically we're getting the same % increase but this isn't about calculated increases but about how it feels to upgrade your gear and the feeling is absolutely lackluster.

It is not nothing. Hyperbole helps no one.

Part of the reason I was asking what they wanted from scaling abilities is because currently the toolkit is not only sufficient, but overly so. Adding scaling here while changing nothing else would only make this worse.

Stop and think about how much less you'd actually have to consider if your healing and active short mitigation scaled even higher with your gear. There is a reason that when Critical changed to scaling Crit.Damage that the initial value was lowered.

Tanks suffer not from power deficiency but extreme passive bloat - You will find I'm mostly opposed to increasing that passive bloat, in any form it takes, and that's not limited to tanks.

I'm all for stat shifting. Throw on Stance of the Irregular and don't die. "Embarass" the DPS. You'll find no argument here about being able to turn into a Glass Cannon, but you'll get every opposition if your idea of "Fun" is just "I have more stats than the rest of the party combined."