Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[Mikey_R]

There are clearly 2 sides of the argument, one for savage and harder and one for the rest, or, to put it another way, one where your DPS/performance matters so that you can avoid hard enrages or ones where it doesn't matter, aka the fights will just go on and on with no hard enrage.

Going with the fights that contain a hard enrage, There is obviously some threshold that needs to be met. The problem is when this threshold is not met. How do you determine where the weak link is so that it can be fixed? If people die/mechanics aren't performed correctly, then it is an easy fix, however, what if noone dies and mechanics are all performed correctly? There is no easy way to determine player A is underperforming by a large margin. If you could determine this, you can then help the player if you can. However, if you are going into the harder content there is also the expectation that you know your job. Unfortunately, there are people who do not know how to play their job and still go in expecting to be able to clear it.

So, some sort of measure is needed for encounters with hard enrages. However, you then have the issue of, do you allow the whole party to see it, or just keep it private for the individual. This then goes back to what I said before. Is the underperforming member going to pipe up and say, yup, I'm the one holding you back. In my experience, that does not happen, which then means, in that encounter, the party as a whole is still ignorant to who or what is preventing the clear.

Yes, it is a weird area. I am hoping people do see both sides of the argument, it is just because they feel stronger in one way or the other, they fall on each side of the fence.

As for the comment on 'strong competitive aspect' and how it essentially made people feel bad, as a counter argument, when I used to go into savage and EX content actively, me and my co tank would always have a friendly competition about who could do the most DPS. It was a healthy competition between both of us, call it a rivalry if you will, however it pushed us to both try harder and be better players over time and there was never any bad blood between us. I'm not saying that because I did not experience the degrading behaviour, it doesn't happen, however, I am saying it does not always result in degrading behaviour.

[Ralph2449]

So a basic opener is inflated in an Extreme Trial fight? That's literally the barest of minimum expectations to have of anyone.

Anyone=Elitist=/=Devs who design said fights

Your desire to have above required dps for an encounter so you can skip mechanics pretty much proves that it is not the real minimum expectation, it is the inflated exception you created and you admitted this.

it's certainly annoying, worthy of being brought up

Indeed, can you imagine having to stop dps at times to do mechanics? Truly a fate I would not wish to my worst enemy when their ego clearly depends on their dps
/s
No decently designed game requires perfect uptime and that includes the occasional times you have to move out cuz someone send a pool your way.

And now we see you throwing "elitism" around for even the slightest disagreement. Not everyone wants to perform at the barest minimum and just "get by".

You see, nobody would have a problem with people who "like to improve themselves" if some of said people werent obnoxious and tried to force their standards on others and thus influence their playstyle and the community with their own inflated requirements.

I like to improve myself for my own sake, yet tryhards almost always will start demanding others do the same even when the dps is more than the minimum requirement and what is causing people problems is mechanic failures.

If everyone shared their mentality, they wouldn't meet the DPS check

And once again we see your elitism by your belief that if people arent religious tryhards they must not be good players or care about improving their performance, clearly anyone who speaks out about elitism must be a terrible player, it cant be that they are simply against elitism and your type of behavior and are more than happy to help others get through fights by having above average performance without expecting external sources to congratulate them and tell them how elite they are.

what the devs intended is, frankly, irrelevant. The community decisions what standards exists.

the community has spoken

Ah yes, the tryhard elitists who know better than anyone should decide such things, like in WoW where people demand 226 gear for content that requires 200 and rewards 213 gear, that is wrong, the community, see elitists who like to tell others what to do and what is right always inflate requirements for their own benefit therefore the standards they create are false and shouldnt be given a second thought exactly because we know they are ridiculously inflated.

players criticising them for doing so are "elitists"?

"on the backs of better players"
"If you aren't capable of doing so, you have no business joining."
"perform at the barest minimum and just "get by""
"for players to essentially leech—queuing into content woefully above their skill level"
"some of us opted to learn how to improve"
"they can't be bothered to put in any effort beyond the barest of minimums"
"having no idea what they're doing"
"players who don't know their job"
Healthy people dont go around calling people leeches for not doing what you do or go around desperately inflating your own performance by calling people below it incapable/getting by and always implying that these "underperformers" are so bad they have no idea what they are doing, that is a very psychologically unhealthy attitude which not only is bad for you, it hurts the community and the game and therefore I will always be against it.

Honestly your post was a perfect example of what I ve been saying in my posts about elitists, from your attitude to all the demeaning things you try to say about anyone not on your performance level.

Your definition of fun isn't the holy grail.

Because I did not define fun, that is based on the context, what I said was certain types of fun are unhealthy, wrong and lead to delusions which are a bad thing, hence my example of a player having fun 2 shoting people in pvp by playing a broken class, that feeling of "fun" is wrong, is not deserved and it is unhealthy because it leads to delusions.

And I am absolutely not saying people should be forced to only be healthy and do good things, it is your life and it is your choice, but the line is drawn the moment your behavior is affecting others negatively, and tryhard elitists have been proven to ruin games and communities, best example being WoW and especially their latest xpac where that mentality of yours is everywhere.

Scenarios like Mikey_R are not "extremely rare"

Someone staying alive yet dealing 10% of their job's performance(Unless of course you go by some ridiculously inflated coordination heavy metric things like pink parses) and groups where literally everyone somehow is exactly at the minimum DEV based dps requirements, that scenario is extremely rare though I do know certain people like to exaggerate which is why I said people need to be honest with themselves, that person might as well have believed his own exaggeration to support his belief, it is still an exaggeration.

they cleared they're above criticism despite using outdated gear.

Another perfect example of tryhardism, god forbid you do the encounters without full bis which isnt need or required by actual dev standards,what's next, are you gonna get annoyed when people beat encounters with green-grey parses?

[Xtrasweettea]

Hey, what's going on in this thread?

*enters a jungle underbrush*
*sees tracks of a few people who left long ago, probably the ones who started the jungle expedition*
*sees a few people sitting at camp talking past each other*
*sees a few people who are getting their ankles caught in Kafkatraps continuously*

Yep, another typical FF14 idea forum thread.

[Mikey_R]

Someone staying alive yet dealing 10% of their job's performance(Unless of course you go by some ridiculously inflated coordination heavy metric things like pink parses) and groups where literally everyone somehow is exactly at the minimum DEV based dps requirements, that scenario is extremely rare though I do know certain people like to exaggerate which is why I said people need to be honest with themselves, that person might as well have believed his own exaggeration to support his belief, it is still an exaggeration.

Yes, it was an exaggeration, but it was an exaggeration to try and amplify the problem to make it more pronounced and easier to identify, however, you have still missed the mark.

Yes, encounters have a minimum performance on a per fight basis, however, the point I was trying to get across is, SE have a minimum criteria for each job in each fight, which is how they derive the minimum performance for a given fight. This means, each job and by extension the player using the job, has a minimum fight contribution that SE expects you to have to be able to clear the content.

Yes, the group as a whole cleared the content, but that one person performing under what SE has calculated for a minimum performance, should they be allowed to clear by riding on the coat tails of the other party members who are performing higher than the minimum? This is the answer you have yet to give. They clearly are not skilled enough for the fight from a damage perspective, so should they even be running it?

This is also why I gave the example of having a whole party that just meet the minimum requirements. The theory being if just one person doesn't perform to this minimum, the party as a whole will not clear.

[Ralph2449]

that one person performing under what SE has calculated for a minimum performance, should they be allowed to clear by riding on the coat tails of the other party members who are performing higher than the minimum? This is the answer you have yet to give.

I am failing to see what is wrong with that, in a sense what you are asking is "Does this person DESERVE to beat the encounter", and here we touch the source of that mentality's problem, there's people who care about "what someone deserves in a digital videogame" as if the video game is some sort of superior authority that can say who deserves what. The very concept of "deserving" has no place here.

That is why I keep mentioning that the issue with elitists is their low self esteem which results in them getting hooked and attached to video game performance, they want to believe they "deserve" things while others dont thus they are "better" yet if they truly knew that internally they wouldnt be so desperate for external sources to tell them that such as video game achievements, elite rewards etc. (And more importantly they wouldnt often actively try to fight against anything that might lead to the sharing of the rewards with other players such as devs making the rewards available through other sources)


Is the person who underperformed lucky to be in a group that has more overperformers than underperformers? yes, they are lucky, that's it.
Is it good that they get to experience and do that encounter? yes, not only because they get to do the content they want but because they also get to learn better that way.
Are there any negatives? As long as the person didnt delude themselves he carried or something no, not geting your l33t roflstomp run/parse is not a negative because both of those belong in statics, the moment you pug your expectations instantly should go out of the window.


Now there is an honest scenario that this could be a problem but it is a rare one, it is the one were all the players are doing mechanics well yet dps checks arent met, the issue with that scenario is that often people love to jump to that conclusion when in reality what screwed them over was mechanic failures but trying to blame DPS has always been the easiest go to excuse for many many people rather than admit the mechanics were not done properly, it could also be the parse obsessed strat that focuses more on parsing rather than doing the encounter well but that is another subject.
Therefore people who keep talking about said scenario being extremely common are certainly on the category that refused to see the actual problem which is why I cant take them seriously.

They clearly are not skilled enough for the fight from a damage perspective, so should they even be running it?

Elitists often talk about this iconic low skilled player that is incapable of doing things well or learning but that is rarely my experience, usually what happens is because the elitist's ego depends on video game performance they try to instinctively demean and push down that person in order to make themselves feel better which results in that person feeling bad and defensive and thus becoming uncooperative while in a friendly environment and some extra time that person would easily learn and improve, alas elitists hate friendly environments and spending time helping others because time is money or something like that xD

It is a video game, there is no such thing as "not skilled enough" because games are made to be won, give you tons of clues of how to win, it is SCRIPTED CONTENT and through time anyone can beat any encounter(Expect cases of extreme physical disabilities)

"Skill" and the obsession elitists have over it since they mention it non stop comes from the same place their obsession with "deserve" comes from.

[Sealish]

snip

I think that the point you are trying to make has merit in some circumstances, but not in all. The level of performance that someone is expected to play at is entirely determined by the content they are doing and who they are doing it with.

Duty finder? As long as you are actually playing and not just AFKing you're good. The absolute bare minimum that everyone should be able to expect from everyone is that they at least perform actions with the goal of clearing the content. The bar and expectations for this is very low.
Party Finder that lists content but no other expectation? You need to be able to perform at what you above lay out as the minimum determined by the Devs. Mechanic skips are not required, but being able to play well enough to clear the content is. This is not a learning party but a clearing party and by joining it you are saying that you know that you can clear it.
Learning Party? No solid expectation other than that you are actually trying to improve and are open to constructive criticism. You need to WANT to get better and actively try to.
Party with expectations listed? You need to be able to meet those expectations. The person/people who made the party are looking for a very specific playstyle that they find fun. If you are joining the group and cannot play in that way, you are in the wrong.

Just like sports, videogames are games... games with differing levels of play for different types of people. All players are expected to play at a level determined by a combination of the content level they are playin in AND the stated goal of the group of people they are playing with. Trying to enforce excessive expectations on someone when the expectations were not laid out at the beginning is wrong, and so is joining a group with listed expectations when you know that you cannot meet them.

[ZedxKayn]

That is why I keep mentioning that the issue with elitists is their low self esteem which results in them getting hooked and attached to video game performance, they want to believe they "deserve" things while others dont thus they are "better" yet if they truly knew that internally they wouldnt be so desperate for external sources to tell them that such as video game achievements, elite rewards etc. (And more importantly they wouldnt often actively try to fight against anything that might lead to the sharing of the rewards with other players such as devs making the rewards available through other sources)

Like... Are you projecting or something? What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to think that wanting your rewards for succeeding something you put of lot of work towards to NOT be handed out to just anyone is a self-esteem issue?

Clearing Savage and Ultimate takes a lot of time and effort, but it's rewarding when you do and release the good chemicals. Knowing that you did this with everyone in your party having put time into studying their job in the encounter feels even greater. Knowing you did it with someone who treated this as an expert roulette actually feels bad.
So yes if you're say and BLM doing less damage than a SCH, you might get the clear but you won't have earned it, it won't be deserved, because it's simply unacceptable in high-end content. It will be handed to you on a silver platter by the rest of your party, quite literally carrying you with their gear.

Elitists often talk about this iconic low skilled player that is incapable of doing things well or learning but that is rarely my experience

What experience? You literally don't have a single job at 80. You can't access the current savage tier. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about here. And don't even mention your WoW experience, WoW and XIV are not the same game with a different community.



Once again, you say over and over "it's a video game sweaty " but so what? This could apply to a lot of other activities.
The rewarding feeling of knowing you achieved something you put a lot of time and effort into with people who tried as hard as you did is GREAT, and giving out rewards is like... A motivator, a staple, it's one of the very bases of video game design. Players performs a feat? They get something to show for it. Player doesn't? They don't. Thinking the latter does is extremely entitled and disrespectful towards those who put time and effort towards achieving it. Do you think everyone not just participating, but trying to participate in the Olympics should get a gold medal?

So basically, want something? Work for it. And while it unfortunately happens, don't feel entitled to be carried when you're not performing at the level expected from a given group content.

[Sealish]

It is a video game, there is no such thing as "not skilled enough" because games are made to be won, give you tons of clues of how to win, it is SCRIPTED CONTENT and through time anyone can beat any encounter(Expect cases of extreme physical disabilities)

"Skill" and the obsession elitists have over it since they mention it non stop comes from the same place their obsession with "deserve" comes from.

Something about this doesn't sit right with me though. "Not Skilled Enough" definitely exists. With any activity that can be improved upon with practice, everyone has a personal "skill ceiling" that they will find very difficult if not impossible to push past. Practice has diminishing returns. Some games are not "made to be won." Even with the games that are made to be won, it is very easy to be not skilled enough to complete them.

Not skilled enough in some cases is a temporary state, but one that still exists. I am not skilled enough to beat endgame top tier content. Could I be skilled enough one day? Yes, I know I could because I know that I am generally pretty decent at this sort of game when I put effort into getting better at them. Am I right now? No way.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having your self esteem and ego being boosted by being good at video games. Video games are a hobby (and in some cases a profession) just like any other. Things that people enjoy doing and are good at make them feel good about themselves, even more so if they know that they can do these things better than the average person. Knowing that you are exceptional at something is a source of pride, and the "what" can be anything. The "what" doesn't matter really... it is a personal thing. If you find pride in being exceptional at day trading stocks and you have made millions of dollars doing it, that is just as valid as finding pride being exceptional at finding perfectly round stones on a beach and collecting them. Videogames are just one more thing that someone can find pride in either having a special aptitude for or working hard at and finding success. It only becomes an issue when you start treating people poorly because of your exceptional skill, but that is an entirely different problem and falls under the "your superior ability at X doesn't make you as a person inherently better than any other person" category and applies to being good at literally anything in the world, not exclusively videogames.

[Tlachtga]

...werent obnoxious and tried to force their standards on others

the lack of self-awareness is laughable...

[Awha]

Funny thing WoW is not even that bad. Sure you run into the few that will rag on someone for their numbers but if you press your buttons and not trying to push for keys without understanding how to play most just ignore it. Please stop hyping up the few negative experiences as the standard.

Yes people that harass due to numbers exist but they are not the norm. I swear the real reason people are so afraid of them allowing a dps meter stems from that fact that many just do not want to run the risk of being held accountable for their play.

I get it is just a game but hardly anyone expects perfrect play but they do expect a dps to not do 10% of the total damage in a 50+ dungeon.