Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[Dzian]

There is a bit of a design mistake that happened in FFXIV where the mechanics got attached to aesthetics, which is a dangerous thing to do in any game since it means that players who want to be the gunman are stuck with the mechanics linked to the gunman, including the baggage that goes with it. Machinist is a very fast paced job and it isn't suitable to every player, but would you go tell that player that he can play dancer? He wanted to be the gunman, and he probably doesn't like the whimsy of the dancer. It's the same thing with monk and other jobs.

This i can relate to definitely. as i think it'd be nice if jobs have varying styles.. i love the aesthetic of monks and hand to hand combat but i'm not a big fan of how current monk plays. i much prefered it's 1.23 varient.

same goes for bard. back in 1.0 i always hoped archer would transition into a glass cannon ranger dps job. more than a weak supoorty singy bard. but the way damage in this game works a glass cannon would be impossible. slightest tickle of raidwide damage and your dead.

seems the same in many mmos though ranged jobs used to be the strongest because they were fragile hence the term glass cannon.. but these days they're confined to more support roles.

[Raelsar]

Seems someone is ruffling some feathers here... and I think it's mostly a case of failing to communicate the severity of the situation they're coming from, which is resulting in jumping to some exaggerated conclusions.

To put it simply, the WoW community (outside of static-type groups) is in such a poor state that it's basically impossible to find an enjoyable experience without being lucky enough to find a group of like-minded individuals (usually a guild, which acts as both FC and static in WoW); you'll be blocked by arbitrary and excessive measures such as item level (often requiring higher than the rewards given by the content you're trying to clear), and even a completely outside-the-game rating tool which is used (quite literally) by 95%+ of the community. To join a random group is to put yourself at risk for being insulted & ridiculed for the slightest mistake; being told to "quit the game" would be on the mild end of the spectrum, far worse things are said without any consequences. So keep in mind, seeing anything which may represent the slightest hint of "elitism" can easily set some players off, because they're coming from an environment where it was wielded against them with impunity. This is also why a lot of former WoW players in FFXIV don't exactly have fond memories of where they came from, and may be a bit zealous in defending what they found here.

Imagine being unable to complete the MSQ due to how poorly the community behaves, making the required group content for new players a dreaded experience.
That is how broken the WoW community is right now, where the the only way to not go through a hellish experience is to find a static to do absolutely any group content. It really is that bad.

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In any case, this why I said parsers represent a slippery slope earlier in the discussion.
I've seen the deep-end of where they can go, and I would rather not see it happen here.

The current detente with them being permitted if the information is kept to the user themselves is fine, and we are still able to have reasonable discussions about what's required and what should be done. However, it's set-up in a way that the negative behaviours they can often spawn if left unchecked can easily be cracked down on by simply enforcing the existing rules; a pretty basic "don't make me come over there" situation, and it's working. The current stance of SE is that they want to foster a friendly and welcoming community; unfortunately, the nature of competitive environments (common in many online games) means a few people are all too willing to discard civility and courtesy to advance their own ends. Luckily, it's not them this game is aiming to cater to.

[Lyth]

Rewards are 'elitist'. The value of a reward comes from its rarity. The ideal reward is one that is easy enough for you to get, but difficult enough that none of your friends have it (yet). That difficulty could translate into time, skill, gil, and so on. Should you feel entitled to these rewards for no effort? No.

If you're going to be participating in something skill driven, you should definitely have tools to check how you are improving. This is why PvP games often give you access to replays and stats so that you can gauge your performance. If you're going to be participating in optional content geared at a higher difficulty setting, you should have that information made available to you.

Actually, perhaps that's the solution. They should introduce an Elitist Allagan Node NPC who follows you around, offering optional tips on how to improve, if you're interested. There can be different personality settings which lets you adjust how friendly/strict it is. ("Cause of death: Standing in blue fire. Tip: Did you know? Not all fire is friendly. Moving out of the orange AoE circles increases your chances of survival, fragile mortal. Your APM on this pull was: 26. Were you sleeping?")

[Dzian]

I bet you would love WoW where they literally made it require achievements to upgrade gear past a certain level so those casual plebs can never have the gear you have

Played wow. Hated wow. Never touched wow again. This was 7 maybe 9 years ago.
I just found the button spam combat tediously mundane (worse than xiv). I wasnt a fan of the art style either. Got bored before I even hit level 60 so cant comment on its endgame.
Funny that you think im elite though... I dont even think Ive cleared a single ex primal this expansion nor set foot in savage.. I'm basically one of those people you keep calling "casual plebs"

Ah yes because people shouldn’t really talk unless they support what narrative the elite wants to spread, people are just too stupid to get what they are saying so they shouldn’t talk unless they have x elite title.

Show me where i said that.. what i said was you cant really comment on the games longevity if you havent played it very long.. twisting words around does you no favours

.Well if your ego wasn’t attached to said ‘shinies’ you wouldn’t have a problem with it or even care, similarly to how in WoW people are using your same argument towards anyone demand fair gear for all because god forbid those dirty casual ‘plebs’ get mythic gear right? Imagine having to be on equal footing instead of keeping people down so you can further delude yourself you are better.

However if people's ego wasn't attached to having said shinies Those "Casual Plebs" As you frequently call them shouldn't care less if they didn't have something.

In fact though they are the ones who do care and kick off because god forbid someone has something shiny they don't have or are to lazy to get themselves.

Whats even funnier though is you've said players should be on equal footing which ultimately is the exact argument many higher players make. You want the shiny. Go do the thing to get it. That is as equal footing as you can possibly get.

Expecting to get the same shiny rewards as other players but with none of the effort other players made to get them is not equality at all. The E word your looking for here is entitlement which comes back to the common "I pay the same sub so I deserve the same shinies argument"

The only thing keeping players down is themselves. What you want isn't equality at all. It's handouts because your own ego or low self esteem can't handle someone having a shiny reward that you don't have. That's unhealthy.

[Raelsar]

That is my main point really, I am not saying that pandering to X elitist idea/mentality/system Ff14 will instantly turn into WoW, that won’t happen overnight, but when such ideas are accepted and embraced through time it will turn into a toxic elitist mess.
thankfully it seems the devs also understand that and have WoW show them what happens when you focus on high end at the expense of everything else so I do feel safer but that doesn’t mean I ll be complacent and trust that will remain so forever hence vigilance is important.

So when I notice an elitist mentality/argument, like the ones only us ‘elites’ deserve’ good rewards and they shouldn’t be accessible to others I will absolutely fight against it because tolerating such elitist ideas is a slippery slope that will turn the game toxic after a while and like the community has proven, the best way to stop elitism is to stop it early from growing deep roots no matter how much they complain about the invented toxic casualism to look like the victims.

While I can certainly understand the sentiment, you do seem to be getting a bit too caught up in your own furor to go after the elitists... and at the moment, it seems you're being more counterproductive to your own efforts rather than furthering them.

And believe me, I've been exactly where you are right now. You've had far too many elitist jerks to deal with over the years, so you're eager to pounce at the slightest hint of elitism in self-righteous fury. Trying to do the right thing, but how you're going about it is just not helping the situation.

The one thing to remember about elitists is that they require validation, attention and acknowledgement of their perceived superiority; almost by definition. After all, how can one be "elite" is no one else cares? Direct criticism only serves to reinforce this, as in their mind, it's acknowledging their strength and they will twist any argument into an attack or attempt to steal what they jealously guard.

Deny them the validation they crave... which I'll admit is easier said than done, especially in the heat of the moment.

I don't think ignoring them is the best approach, but negating their egos might be. Downplay their attempts at grandstanding. Don't try to minimize their accomplishments, as they could perceive that as an attack and will twist it to their own ends; just gently chide them for letting it go to their heads. On the other side of the spectrum, try things like downplaying your own successes and placing more emphasis on the successes of the group. Be the anti-thesis to elitist behaviour. I'm still working out the kinks of the theory here of how to properly deal with it, but that should give you an idea.

But yes, don't get caught up in your own furor. Elitists crave validation, and unfortunately raging at them is giving them exactly what they want.

[Ralph2449]

The one thing to remember about elitists is that they require validation, attention and acknowledgement of their perceived superiority; almost by definition. After all, how can one be "elite" is no one else cares? Direct criticism only serves to reinforce this, as in their mind, it's acknowledging their strength and they will twist any argument into an attack or attempt to steal what they jealously guard.

Deny them the validation they crave... which I'll admit is easier said than done, especially in the heat of the moment.

I don't think ignoring them is the best approach, but negating their egos might be. Downplay their attempts at grandstanding. Don't try to minimize their accomplishments, as they could perceive that as an attack and will twist it to their own ends; just gently chide them for letting it go to their heads. On the other side of the spectrum, try things like downplaying your own successes and placing more emphasis on the successes of the group. Be the anti-thesis to elitist behaviour. I'm still working out the kinks of the theory here of how to properly deal with it, but that should give you an idea.

But yes, don't get caught up in your own furor. Elitists crave validation, and unfortunately raging at them is giving them exactly what they want.

You arent wrong, it is quite easy to get carried away, especially when you know that is their central source of insecurity so they will react extremely aggressively since in a sense I am denying like you said their perceived superiority and eliteness upon which their self worth is based.

I am honestly not certain either if there's a solution to an elitist mentality that doesnt involve months of extremely friendly and painfully positive therapy level talk because humans cannot simply rearrange their core belief system no mater how wrong it might be in any small amount of time.

Negating their egos is definitely a task that is pretty hard, especially as a random forum poster though that is why I ended up really liking the idea of trust system and imagined a possible expansion of it that would lead to high end content as a form of solo challenge by having it tuned that in order to be beaten it would require perfect mechanics and decent dps performance, if that were ever to be true we would see countless casuals, solo players and those people they demean(By implying they are bad because they havent done high end content) beaten their precious high end content and getting those rewards.


Suddenly the one thing they hold above all others vanishes and they will be forced to finally accept that the real challenge and actual difficulty of high end group content is finding the right people aka the social barrier many dont want to bother with, not their l33t performance they obsess over, alas that is something that the devs would need to do, not me.

Though the general principle would be something that proves that those casual solo players arent the terribad, low skilled, lazy, incompetent people and other generalizations they throw around but unless trusts get expanded I am absolutely certain they will always demean solo achievements as inferior to their group achievements even when the personal skill required in those achievements might be higher.