Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[ForteNightshade]

Reasonable*=See inflated

I wasnt talking about soar, I was talking about flare star which is why I mentioned p1, that phase that literally lasts for less than a minute, I was in a group with a tryhard who unironically complained about the placement as if he was in some static tryhard group, it was a pug and it was not something that caused anyone problem and there was more than enough safe space to move to, he just complained because it wanst that perfectly stacked flare star IN A PUG.

So no it wasnt about a dps check, it was just a delusional tryhard who for some reason expects people to have done the fight in some l33t group a million times before and follows their l33t strat at all times cuz of course everyone must have done that fight when it was current.

So a basic opener is inflated in an Extreme Trial fight? That's literally the barest of minimum expectations to have of anyone.

Could they have been a Black Mage, Bard or Machinist per chance, all of which had cast times in Heavensward, and in the case of Black Mage, very minimal movement tools? If so, they were likely upset someone baited a Flare Star AoE near them, which focused excessive movement. While not something to rage over, it's certainly annoying, and yes, worthy of being brought up. Perhaps instead of defaulting to calling someone a tryhard if they show even the slightest interest in maintaining their damage, you might notice these things. Granted, they could have threw a gasket, though based on your responses in this thread alone. I suspect it's you making them out to be the bad guy far more if only because in less than a paragraph, you've insulted them several times.

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping.

And now we see you throwing "elitism" around for even the slightest disagreement. Not everyone wants to perform at the barest minimum and just "get by". If a party advertises "Skipping Soar," then by joining their party you're agreeing to such a prerequisite. If you aren't capable of doing so, you have no business joining. That isn't elitism but simple courtesy. If there aren't any parties available tailored towards your preference, make your own. If it doesn't fill quickly, then the community has spoken.

Speaking of which, what the devs intended is, frankly, irrelevant. The community decisions what standards exists. A prime example is healer DPS. The dev team never intended for healers to contribute large amounts of DPS. In fact, Yoshida infamously claimed they don't calculate healer DPS at all despite releasing Gordias and Mids, which were downright impossible without. That statement has since but walked back to claim they don't calculate healer DPS outside of early week prog, or at least not heavily. Regardless, the community has more or less thrown out that entire philosophy be it due to equal contribution arguments, lackluster healing design both mechanical and encounter wise or simply adapting to the systems given.

That last statement is important as I can flip your argument and say if they didn't want players setting higher expectations like Skip Soar. They shouldn't have put it at a HP threshold low enough players can easily skip if they're reasonably competent at their job. Expectations don't arise out of thin air but from adaptation within the game rules.

Yes, when the content has generous checks and even allows for mistakes so you can still clear after that then it is okay, the world didnt end, someone just didnt play well, instead of being offended by the fact not everyone is a tryhard maybe you should have felt better for yourself for having above average performance to get everyone through, I am starting to think this western mentality that seems to be repulsed by anyone underperfoming comes for the delusional "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" meme since it is the same thing but for irl.

My issue with this mentality is that hypothetical Black Mage only cleared on the backs of better players putting in a greater effort then they were willing to. If everyone shared their mentality, they wouldn't meet the DPS check, no matter how generous. Therefore, why is it okay for players to essentially leech—queuing into content woefully above their skill level—yet players criticising them for doing so are "elitists"?

Put another way. We all started off bad and/inexperienced at some point. Except some of us opted to learn how to improve. Why can't others if they want to attempt harder content?

Maybe players shouldnt be playing a game if they cant have fun without expecting people to be on their already INFLATED level, this is a video game, not a job, not something you do to please others and definitely not something that your self worth should depend on.
If you are frustrated cuz someone is learning or is new, you are the problem for having severely unrealistic and false expectations and that is on you, if you treated this like a video game you wouldnt be having such problems.

Your definition of fun isn't the holy grail. I'm not particularly keen having someone like the aforementioned Black Mage waste my time in Savage level content because they can't be bothered to put in any effort beyond the barest of minimums. It's disrespectful to upwards of seven other people who are attempting to clear say, E10S, but now have to deal with more mechanics they may otherwise have skipped or risk things like damage downs or repeated wipes due to someone having no idea what they're doing.

And your now shifting the goal posts. We aren't talking about new players and you know it. People weren't demanding Skip Soar and whatnot in learning parties. Most people are far more accommodating in a learning party, provided you're there to learn the actual fight and not your job. It's when players who don't know their job join clear/farm/two chest players that upset people as they have business doing so.

Scenarios like Mikey_R are not "extremely rare" if you frequent PF whatsoever. They are, in fact, quire common. Hence why it's been a continuous talking point for several years. Hell, I only just saw someone on stream who when told to upgrade their i500 weapon (last tier BiS), they promptly responded with "Why? Who cares?" This was in E11S, by the way. And with your logic, since they cleared they're above criticism despite using outdated gear.

[Ralph2449]

So a basic opener is inflated in an Extreme Trial fight? That's literally the barest of minimum expectations to have of anyone.

Anyone=Elitist=/=Devs who design said fights

Your desire to have above required dps for an encounter so you can skip mechanics pretty much proves that it is not the real minimum expectation, it is the inflated exception you created and you admitted this.

it's certainly annoying, worthy of being brought up

Indeed, can you imagine having to stop dps at times to do mechanics? Truly a fate I would not wish to my worst enemy when their ego clearly depends on their dps
/s
No decently designed game requires perfect uptime and that includes the occasional times you have to move out cuz someone send a pool your way.

And now we see you throwing "elitism" around for even the slightest disagreement. Not everyone wants to perform at the barest minimum and just "get by".

You see, nobody would have a problem with people who "like to improve themselves" if some of said people werent obnoxious and tried to force their standards on others and thus influence their playstyle and the community with their own inflated requirements.

I like to improve myself for my own sake, yet tryhards almost always will start demanding others do the same even when the dps is more than the minimum requirement and what is causing people problems is mechanic failures.

If everyone shared their mentality, they wouldn't meet the DPS check

And once again we see your elitism by your belief that if people arent religious tryhards they must not be good players or care about improving their performance, clearly anyone who speaks out about elitism must be a terrible player, it cant be that they are simply against elitism and your type of behavior and are more than happy to help others get through fights by having above average performance without expecting external sources to congratulate them and tell them how elite they are.

what the devs intended is, frankly, irrelevant. The community decisions what standards exists.

the community has spoken

Ah yes, the tryhard elitists who know better than anyone should decide such things, like in WoW where people demand 226 gear for content that requires 200 and rewards 213 gear, that is wrong, the community, see elitists who like to tell others what to do and what is right always inflate requirements for their own benefit therefore the standards they create are false and shouldnt be given a second thought exactly because we know they are ridiculously inflated.

players criticising them for doing so are "elitists"?

"on the backs of better players"
"If you aren't capable of doing so, you have no business joining."
"perform at the barest minimum and just "get by""
"for players to essentially leech—queuing into content woefully above their skill level"
"some of us opted to learn how to improve"
"they can't be bothered to put in any effort beyond the barest of minimums"
"having no idea what they're doing"
"players who don't know their job"
Healthy people dont go around calling people leeches for not doing what you do or go around desperately inflating your own performance by calling people below it incapable/getting by and always implying that these "underperformers" are so bad they have no idea what they are doing, that is a very psychologically unhealthy attitude which not only is bad for you, it hurts the community and the game and therefore I will always be against it.

Honestly your post was a perfect example of what I ve been saying in my posts about elitists, from your attitude to all the demeaning things you try to say about anyone not on your performance level.

Your definition of fun isn't the holy grail.

Because I did not define fun, that is based on the context, what I said was certain types of fun are unhealthy, wrong and lead to delusions which are a bad thing, hence my example of a player having fun 2 shoting people in pvp by playing a broken class, that feeling of "fun" is wrong, is not deserved and it is unhealthy because it leads to delusions.

And I am absolutely not saying people should be forced to only be healthy and do good things, it is your life and it is your choice, but the line is drawn the moment your behavior is affecting others negatively, and tryhard elitists have been proven to ruin games and communities, best example being WoW and especially their latest xpac where that mentality of yours is everywhere.

Scenarios like Mikey_R are not "extremely rare"

Someone staying alive yet dealing 10% of their job's performance(Unless of course you go by some ridiculously inflated coordination heavy metric things like pink parses) and groups where literally everyone somehow is exactly at the minimum DEV based dps requirements, that scenario is extremely rare though I do know certain people like to exaggerate which is why I said people need to be honest with themselves, that person might as well have believed his own exaggeration to support his belief, it is still an exaggeration.

they cleared they're above criticism despite using outdated gear.

Another perfect example of tryhardism, god forbid you do the encounters without full bis which isnt need or required by actual dev standards,what's next, are you gonna get annoyed when people beat encounters with green-grey parses?

[Mikey_R]

Someone staying alive yet dealing 10% of their job's performance(Unless of course you go by some ridiculously inflated coordination heavy metric things like pink parses) and groups where literally everyone somehow is exactly at the minimum DEV based dps requirements, that scenario is extremely rare though I do know certain people like to exaggerate which is why I said people need to be honest with themselves, that person might as well have believed his own exaggeration to support his belief, it is still an exaggeration.

Yes, it was an exaggeration, but it was an exaggeration to try and amplify the problem to make it more pronounced and easier to identify, however, you have still missed the mark.

Yes, encounters have a minimum performance on a per fight basis, however, the point I was trying to get across is, SE have a minimum criteria for each job in each fight, which is how they derive the minimum performance for a given fight. This means, each job and by extension the player using the job, has a minimum fight contribution that SE expects you to have to be able to clear the content.

Yes, the group as a whole cleared the content, but that one person performing under what SE has calculated for a minimum performance, should they be allowed to clear by riding on the coat tails of the other party members who are performing higher than the minimum? This is the answer you have yet to give. They clearly are not skilled enough for the fight from a damage perspective, so should they even be running it?

This is also why I gave the example of having a whole party that just meet the minimum requirements. The theory being if just one person doesn't perform to this minimum, the party as a whole will not clear.

[Ralph2449]

that one person performing under what SE has calculated for a minimum performance, should they be allowed to clear by riding on the coat tails of the other party members who are performing higher than the minimum? This is the answer you have yet to give.

I am failing to see what is wrong with that, in a sense what you are asking is "Does this person DESERVE to beat the encounter", and here we touch the source of that mentality's problem, there's people who care about "what someone deserves in a digital videogame" as if the video game is some sort of superior authority that can say who deserves what. The very concept of "deserving" has no place here.

That is why I keep mentioning that the issue with elitists is their low self esteem which results in them getting hooked and attached to video game performance, they want to believe they "deserve" things while others dont thus they are "better" yet if they truly knew that internally they wouldnt be so desperate for external sources to tell them that such as video game achievements, elite rewards etc. (And more importantly they wouldnt often actively try to fight against anything that might lead to the sharing of the rewards with other players such as devs making the rewards available through other sources)


Is the person who underperformed lucky to be in a group that has more overperformers than underperformers? yes, they are lucky, that's it.
Is it good that they get to experience and do that encounter? yes, not only because they get to do the content they want but because they also get to learn better that way.
Are there any negatives? As long as the person didnt delude themselves he carried or something no, not geting your l33t roflstomp run/parse is not a negative because both of those belong in statics, the moment you pug your expectations instantly should go out of the window.


Now there is an honest scenario that this could be a problem but it is a rare one, it is the one were all the players are doing mechanics well yet dps checks arent met, the issue with that scenario is that often people love to jump to that conclusion when in reality what screwed them over was mechanic failures but trying to blame DPS has always been the easiest go to excuse for many many people rather than admit the mechanics were not done properly, it could also be the parse obsessed strat that focuses more on parsing rather than doing the encounter well but that is another subject.
Therefore people who keep talking about said scenario being extremely common are certainly on the category that refused to see the actual problem which is why I cant take them seriously.

They clearly are not skilled enough for the fight from a damage perspective, so should they even be running it?

Elitists often talk about this iconic low skilled player that is incapable of doing things well or learning but that is rarely my experience, usually what happens is because the elitist's ego depends on video game performance they try to instinctively demean and push down that person in order to make themselves feel better which results in that person feeling bad and defensive and thus becoming uncooperative while in a friendly environment and some extra time that person would easily learn and improve, alas elitists hate friendly environments and spending time helping others because time is money or something like that xD

It is a video game, there is no such thing as "not skilled enough" because games are made to be won, give you tons of clues of how to win, it is SCRIPTED CONTENT and through time anyone can beat any encounter(Expect cases of extreme physical disabilities)

"Skill" and the obsession elitists have over it since they mention it non stop comes from the same place their obsession with "deserve" comes from.

[ZedxKayn]

That is why I keep mentioning that the issue with elitists is their low self esteem which results in them getting hooked and attached to video game performance, they want to believe they "deserve" things while others dont thus they are "better" yet if they truly knew that internally they wouldnt be so desperate for external sources to tell them that such as video game achievements, elite rewards etc. (And more importantly they wouldnt often actively try to fight against anything that might lead to the sharing of the rewards with other players such as devs making the rewards available through other sources)

Like... Are you projecting or something? What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to think that wanting your rewards for succeeding something you put of lot of work towards to NOT be handed out to just anyone is a self-esteem issue?

Clearing Savage and Ultimate takes a lot of time and effort, but it's rewarding when you do and release the good chemicals. Knowing that you did this with everyone in your party having put time into studying their job in the encounter feels even greater. Knowing you did it with someone who treated this as an expert roulette actually feels bad.
So yes if you're say and BLM doing less damage than a SCH, you might get the clear but you won't have earned it, it won't be deserved, because it's simply unacceptable in high-end content. It will be handed to you on a silver platter by the rest of your party, quite literally carrying you with their gear.

Elitists often talk about this iconic low skilled player that is incapable of doing things well or learning but that is rarely my experience

What experience? You literally don't have a single job at 80. You can't access the current savage tier. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about here. And don't even mention your WoW experience, WoW and XIV are not the same game with a different community.



Once again, you say over and over "it's a video game sweaty " but so what? This could apply to a lot of other activities.
The rewarding feeling of knowing you achieved something you put a lot of time and effort into with people who tried as hard as you did is GREAT, and giving out rewards is like... A motivator, a staple, it's one of the very bases of video game design. Players performs a feat? They get something to show for it. Player doesn't? They don't. Thinking the latter does is extremely entitled and disrespectful towards those who put time and effort towards achieving it. Do you think everyone not just participating, but trying to participate in the Olympics should get a gold medal?

So basically, want something? Work for it. And while it unfortunately happens, don't feel entitled to be carried when you're not performing at the level expected from a given group content.

[Kaurhz]

Snip

If you did an adequate amount of research before putting your fingers on the keyboard you'd realize the person has a Level80 Ninja. Lol

Besides, his position within the game irrespective of much or little doesn't invalidate what opinion(s) the person has when it is in response to someone creating hyperbole in order to try and validate some absurd prerogative. When you use the duty finder (and party finder therein) in order to prog content you already relinquish your right to create expectancies, if you don't like it; create your own group of individuals to tackle the content as people will eventually fall short of the bar for a wide variety of reasons.

[ZedxKayn]

If you did an adequate amount of research before putting your fingers on the keyboard you'd realize the person has a Level80 Ninja. Lol

I did actually, just yesterday (or was just a few minutes ago?) his NIN was still at 75, on the forum and the lodestone both. Then I invite you to do your own research and check his gear on the lodestone: you can't enter savage with scaevan gear.

Besides, his position within the game irrespective of much or little doesn't invalidate what opinion(s) the person has when it is in response to someone creating hyperbole in order to try and validate some absurd prerogative. When you use the duty finder (and party finder therein) in order to prog content you already relinquish your right to create expectancies, if you don't like it; create your own group of individuals to tackle the content as people will eventually fall short of the bar for a wide variety of reasons.

No, people are allowed to have expectations in savage content. That's why I left parties with dead weights when I pugged last tier, or kicked them when I was the party owner. I didn't join a WL2 prog to not even get past add phase.

[Sealish]

It is a video game, there is no such thing as "not skilled enough" because games are made to be won, give you tons of clues of how to win, it is SCRIPTED CONTENT and through time anyone can beat any encounter(Expect cases of extreme physical disabilities)

"Skill" and the obsession elitists have over it since they mention it non stop comes from the same place their obsession with "deserve" comes from.

Something about this doesn't sit right with me though. "Not Skilled Enough" definitely exists. With any activity that can be improved upon with practice, everyone has a personal "skill ceiling" that they will find very difficult if not impossible to push past. Practice has diminishing returns. Some games are not "made to be won." Even with the games that are made to be won, it is very easy to be not skilled enough to complete them.

Not skilled enough in some cases is a temporary state, but one that still exists. I am not skilled enough to beat endgame top tier content. Could I be skilled enough one day? Yes, I know I could because I know that I am generally pretty decent at this sort of game when I put effort into getting better at them. Am I right now? No way.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having your self esteem and ego being boosted by being good at video games. Video games are a hobby (and in some cases a profession) just like any other. Things that people enjoy doing and are good at make them feel good about themselves, even more so if they know that they can do these things better than the average person. Knowing that you are exceptional at something is a source of pride, and the "what" can be anything. The "what" doesn't matter really... it is a personal thing. If you find pride in being exceptional at day trading stocks and you have made millions of dollars doing it, that is just as valid as finding pride being exceptional at finding perfectly round stones on a beach and collecting them. Videogames are just one more thing that someone can find pride in either having a special aptitude for or working hard at and finding success. It only becomes an issue when you start treating people poorly because of your exceptional skill, but that is an entirely different problem and falls under the "your superior ability at X doesn't make you as a person inherently better than any other person" category and applies to being good at literally anything in the world, not exclusively videogames.

[Dzian]

"Skill" and the obsession elitists have over it since they mention it non stop comes from the same place their obsession with "deserve" comes from.

You're wrong here. The people who have the obsession with "deserve" are typically not the "elite" players as you call them but it is the lower end ones. they have the common belief that if they pay the same sub they deserve the same rewards.

you will almost never see a top tier player actively tell someone they can't have something. what they typically say is sure you can have it. just go and do whatever piece of content it comes from. you said as much yourself here

through time anyone can beat any encounter

that being the case why do people cry and proclaim that they deserve those rewards to be handed to them on a silver platter. because they pay the same sub. or other similar arguement.

if anyone can beat any encounter given time then what is the problem with keeping rewards tied to it and having them maintain there value and significance? the reality is people are often just lazy and feel they are entitled to or deserve the same rewards without any of the effort.

You talk about community health also but this obsession with lower tier players feeling they deserve the same rewards as the higher tier players is ultimately the most detrimental thing to the health of this game..

the game and the community should be helpig players rise to the various challenges within. promoting player growth, player development, stronger social bonds...

what ffxiv does is the opposite. it never helps players rise to the chalenges instead it promote laziness and entitlement. it brings the challenges down to the player and this is why players get bored and find the game unrewarding..

ffxiv as a game has no problem pulling new players in but it has an incredibly tough timekeeping players interested or engaged. some of the bigger fc company leadersthat often welcome newbies often say this.. they can get 20 new members today and in the next month or 2 find that maybe only 2 or 3 are still playing.. I've said myself the game really isnt that great. the main thing t hat keeps me playing is my group of friends.

it's not the top tier players that are obsessed with who deserves what. if they're obsessed with anything it's fairness. want the same reward. do the same challenge. basic fairness.

its the lower end players who are obsessed with entitlement and deserve.. they want all the shiny things but they dont want to step up to the challenges, they feel entitled they feel they deserve. they feel they shouldnt have to earn it fairly..

[Sealish]

snip

I think that the point you are trying to make has merit in some circumstances, but not in all. The level of performance that someone is expected to play at is entirely determined by the content they are doing and who they are doing it with.

Duty finder? As long as you are actually playing and not just AFKing you're good. The absolute bare minimum that everyone should be able to expect from everyone is that they at least perform actions with the goal of clearing the content. The bar and expectations for this is very low.
Party Finder that lists content but no other expectation? You need to be able to perform at what you above lay out as the minimum determined by the Devs. Mechanic skips are not required, but being able to play well enough to clear the content is. This is not a learning party but a clearing party and by joining it you are saying that you know that you can clear it.
Learning Party? No solid expectation other than that you are actually trying to improve and are open to constructive criticism. You need to WANT to get better and actively try to.
Party with expectations listed? You need to be able to meet those expectations. The person/people who made the party are looking for a very specific playstyle that they find fun. If you are joining the group and cannot play in that way, you are in the wrong.

Just like sports, videogames are games... games with differing levels of play for different types of people. All players are expected to play at a level determined by a combination of the content level they are playin in AND the stated goal of the group of people they are playing with. Trying to enforce excessive expectations on someone when the expectations were not laid out at the beginning is wrong, and so is joining a group with listed expectations when you know that you cannot meet them.