Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[Awha]

Funny thing WoW is not even that bad. Sure you run into the few that will rag on someone for their numbers but if you press your buttons and not trying to push for keys without understanding how to play most just ignore it. Please stop hyping up the few negative experiences as the standard.

Yes people that harass due to numbers exist but they are not the norm. I swear the real reason people are so afraid of them allowing a dps meter stems from that fact that many just do not want to run the risk of being held accountable for their play.

I get it is just a game but hardly anyone expects perfrect play but they do expect a dps to not do 10% of the total damage in a 50+ dungeon.

[Vahlnir]

Funny thing WoW is not even that bad. Sure you run into the few that will rag on someone for their numbers but if you press your buttons and not trying to push for keys without understanding how to play most just ignore it. Please stop hyping up the few negative experiences as the standard.

Yes people that harass due to numbers exist but they are not the norm. I swear the real reason people are so afraid of them allowing a dps meter stems from that fact that many just do not want to run the risk of being held accountable for their play.

I get it is just a game but hardly anyone expects perfrect play but they do expect a dps to not do 10% of the total damage in a 50+ dungeon.

Most of the negativity I've seen in WoW in recent years hasn't been regarding dps. Just general gameplay/mechanic fails. Basically just take the worst possible scenario here and increase the magnitude by 5. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it can get pretty heated.

[Awha]

Most of the negativity I've seen in WoW in recent years hasn't been regarding dps. Just general gameplay/mechanic fails. Basically just take the worst possible scenario here and increase the magnitude by 5. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it can get pretty heated.

It really is not that bad depending on the content in question. People just generally expect a certain level on competence depending on the content. So sure things get heated when you get an LFR only player trying to push harder content when they have not put in any effort to learn their job and play it well enough to maintain a consistent level of play while also executing mechanics and maintain awareness.

It would not be anymore heated then it is now instead it will just happen in game and not in discord. People fighting against it have no logical reason to be against the tool outside of a emotionally fueled response based around a few negative encounters. It is akin to people saying all x is bad cause sub set y has a negative experiences with x ignoring every other positive or neutral action that people have with x.

[Ralph2449]

The raiders who want equality are the reasoable ones who don't foam out of rage and hatred for the bad, bad "casuals" (which, of course, also consist of good and bad apples)

I remember saying that everyone should have a path to max ilvl in WoW and all the elitists jumped out of the crowd to rage and attack me and similar posts because how dare the "plebs" have access to the same game gear as their "special", "deserving", "superior, "elite" selves, that is one of the most clear signs of how unhealthy certain elitists can be when their ego depends on unique rewards and gear to the point they are horrified at the idea that a casual through very slow grinding might actually get to have the same gear as them D:
I honestly have no issue with good players who play the game for their own reasons but the moment they start doing things like the above then they have crossed the line.

This shows the extend of their psychological issue as well as how they will actively try to negatively affect the community and withold things from others and even push against any devs that might try to make a game more accessible to all, I honestly am thankful FF14 cares about making the game accessible to all rather than the "elite" who have also deluded themselves into thinking they are more "deserving" of the devs resources and attention even though they are in the minority.

Party with expectations listed? You need to be able to meet those expectations. The person/people who made the party are looking for a very specific playstyle that they find fun. If you are joining the group and cannot play in that way, you are in the wrong.

There's a major problem with that and it is the consequences and effects that has to a community.

People start with X requirement and keep inflating it until they get their desired roflstomp run, ignoring the blatant issue of gatekeeping for now those types of inflated requirements become normalized and you see more and more people have these inflated requirements, many times not even knowing why said requirements were invented so all they know is that they should religiously uphold them which slowly turns the community more and more elitists because basic performance is not tolerated anymore, you either follow the elitist way or you are out aka you either treat the game as a job or you are out, minimum or average requirement equals "bad low skilled player", thinking of doing things differently? Sorry you need to follow the elite approved TM strat, no thinking, only following elite, which sooner or later said expectations start creeping into lower tiers which will include learning groups.


This in time keeps spreading and dividing the community, at one side people who have accepted the elitist mentality and treat the game as a JOB where they NEED to have X performance no matter what and would go through ridiculous things to achieve it while now demanding others do the same(And more start falling victim to "I am so skilled, my ego depends on video game performance, how can they be so bad and wipe") and people who are barred from that now seen as "elite content" because the inflated requirements and toxicity of elitists/tryhards is too much to bother, hence we have the hardcore elitists that delude themselves they are better than those 'dirty casuals who are too low skilled to do our "elite content" that only us high skilled people can do' and the casuals thinking high end content is not worth the effort cuz you have to treat the video game like a job plus these people at high end are obnoxious.

Perfect example of that process can be seen in WoW if one has played it for some time, "elite content" such as mythic raids is nothing more than just harder heroic with an extra mechanic or two, yet because of the above process many simply cant be bothered to touch it because of how inflated requirements are in many guilds as well as the fact that tryhard elitists are so obnoxious and toxic only other tryhard elitists can handle playing with them so anyone who wouldnt adopt the elitist mentality and treat the game as a job is sooner or later gone. Not only that but because this was never about the game, encounter and instead was about ego they often dont even understand why something is "meta" or "good" and because of that ignorance they end up worshiping incredibly flawed and inflated requirements which leads to further toxicity towards anyone not being a metaslave.

You even show that attitude with the person who started going "I am just asking for minimum requirement" yet later admitted it was an inflated requirement, they try to mask their behavior like that by pretending it is about common sense yet the truth is revealed after some quick questioning.

What you said should be left for statics and a group of people who have chosen to play and improve together, not pugs.

Not skilled enough in some cases is a temporary state, but one that still exists. I am not skilled enough to beat endgame top tier content. Could I be skilled enough one day?

My point exactly, because this is a scripted video game meant to be won and not some extremely complicated irl task like theoretical physics you dont need days, months years to beat an encounter, a few wipes are usually more than enough.

I remember queing for extreme zephirot and ended up in a group where we wiped like what, 6 times since we had a number of sprouts? But we got it down at the end because figuring out what to do in a single encounter is not hard, it only requires some practice and a few wipes, something that shouldnt be such a huge deal for certain people who act as if wasting time or wiping is the end of the world.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having your self esteem and ego being boosted by being good at video games.

That is where I would heavily disagree because video games are made to be won and make you feel better, they manipulate you and give you visual signs to assist you with the challenge therefore lessening the real challenge further by design , to take pride in beating scripted video game content is similar to taking pride in doing a basic task, worse is video games create the illusion of challenge which leads to people falling for having their ego depend on a video game, and honestly I wouldnt mind if people did that, the issue is that it leads to obnoxious elitists who start negatively affecting the people around them. Then there's the obvious topic of "If a company makes you feel better and deludes you into feeling you achieved something big all in exchange for money, that sounds kinda unethical" but marketing is unironically legal so this species has a long way before grasping such topics.

What experience? You literally don't have a single job at 80. You can't access the current savage tier. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about here. And don't even mention your WoW experience, WoW and XIV are not the same game with a different community.

I was wondering when someone would try go through the typical elitist "let me check your achievements and if you havent done X your argument is invalid" which is a common tactic when one cannot argue for their beliefs so their only course left is to try undermine them through other means, are you gonna attack my grammar next?
I know how this game is played because I have seen the same in WoW in the form of "Oh you only do LFR so you dont matter, oh you only do normal so you dont matter, oh you only do heroic so you dont matter, oh you only have aotc so you dont matter, oh you only have the first 3 in mythic,those are easy so you dont matter, lol you havent beaten the last 2 mythic bosses you cant talk, Oh you cleared mythic? well it wasnt early in the patch so its irrelevant or you must have been carried so what you said is wrong, funny how the goalposts keep moving when someone really wants to believe you are wrong ;^)

I ve played a ton of mmos throughout the years and often on the higher end through the perspective of someone who cares about understanding them rather than beating them so I can pretend I am skilled and beat my chest in front of others(in a video game, a thing created to be beaten because its scripted content), but more importantly I ve observed many game communities and how they behave and evolve, which is why i actually explain things indepth and to the core instead of blindly defending that delusional feeling that makes me feel better at the expense of others. I explained in detail why your mentality ruins games and the proof can be seen in the disaster that is WoW.

Funny thing WoW is not even that bad. Sure you run into the few that will rag on someone for their numbers but if you press your buttons and not trying to push for keys without understanding how to play most just ignore it. Please stop hyping up the few negative experiences as the standard.

Negative experiences is the standard for anyone who will not embrace elitism, tryhardism and metaslaving in WoW, good luck spending hours queing for groups to get gear as a non meta spec, or you ll just say make your own group not realizing you wont be getting people to join unless you have a ridiculous IO score which good luck getting via pugging if you didnt start from day one of the xpac, but hey, Uncle Bobby got you, just buy a wow token for real life money and spend the gold in a boost so maybe after 2 months you will be geared enough that someone might invite cuz of that cuz it certainly wont be cuz your spec aint meta.

The thing is because tryhardism and elitism has quite literally infested all areas of WoW, game is filled with clueless elitists and metaslaves who dont understand encounters or what makes something meta yet they blindly worship it as a holy book cuz their streamer/wowhead/MDI told them these are the only good specs for m+

I have no doubt WoW is great for elitist tryhards who want to feel special and unique and above the "casual plebs" and that is why casuals are unsubbing in droves.

You're wrong here. The people who have the obsession with "deserve" are typically not the "elite" players as you call them but it is the lower end ones.

Oh that is why elitists start raging when a game becomes more accessible, content is nerfed, rewards are gives via casual and solo achievements?

They believe they "deserve" those rewards and the "casual plebs" dont, which is exactly why they react so extremely when things like these happen.

if anyone can beat any encounter given time then what is the problem with keeping rewards tied to it

I dont know, probably something about the fact that you are not solely responsible for an encounter and you have to deal with many other people which is often the main major social barrier stopping many people from said content.

Let's say SE expands trusts to savage raids and extreme trials and of course keeps the rewards and tune it in such a way that the encounter depends on solely you playing well and doing decently, when they do that and only then can you say "if anyone can beat any encounter given time then what is the problem with keeping rewards tied to it" but then it would be true, anyone who would spend enough time there would get the reward.

what ffxiv does is the opposite. it never helps players rise to the chalenges instead it promote laziness and entitlement. it brings the challenges down to the player and this is why players get bored and find the game unrewarding.

No, for healthy people FF14 is a really fun game that lasts for ages and the continuing increase in subs and popularly supports that, for elitists whose ego depends on video game "achievements" and being given exclusive rewards to differentiate them from the "casual plebs", for them then the game is "unrewarding", you see, healthy individuals dont base their ego on video games so that is not what we look for when we play one.

[ZedxKayn]

I was wondering when someone would try go through the typical elitist "let me check your achievements and if you havent done X your argument is invalid" which is a common tactic when one cannot argue for their beliefs so their only course left is to try undermine them through other means, are you gonna attack my grammar next?
I know how this game is played because I have seen the same in WoW in the form of "Oh you only do LFR so you dont matter, oh you only do normal so you dont matter, oh you only do heroic so you dont matter, oh you only have aotc so you dont matter, oh you only have the first 3 in mythic,those are easy so you dont matter, lol you havent beaten the last 2 mythic bosses you cant talk, Oh you cleared mythic? well it wasnt early in the patch so its irrelevant or you must have been carried so what you said is wrong, funny how the goalposts keep moving when someone really wants to believe you are wrong ;^)

I ve played a ton of mmos throughout the years and often on the higher end through the perspective of someone who cares about understanding them rather than beating them so I can pretend I am skilled and beat my chest in front of others(in a video game, a thing created to be beaten because its scripted content), but more importantly I ve observed many game communities and how they behave and evolve, which is why i actually explain things indepth and to the core instead of blindly defending that delusional feeling that makes me feel better at the expense of others. I explained in detail why your mentality ruins games and the proof can be seen in the disaster that is WoW.

I ran out of argument according to who? Do you think that pointing out something extremely relevant to the topic at hand about you means that I'm resorting to ad hominem? But it's okay when you keep bringing up players' ego over and over again?

I don't care about your grammar, don't talk about having experience in something you clearly don't and call the unhappy people who do and disagree with you toxic, entitled gatekeeping elitists with ego issues. Do you realize how insulting you come across as? (inb4 you call my ego fragile for pointing out that you're disrespectful as hell)

Repeating myself, FFXIV isn't WoW, FFXIV isn't any of the other MMOs you have played, moreso than any other game XIV has a HUGE "toxic/entitled casuals" issue and probably the worst skill: playtime ratio you're gonna see in any video game only because the game doesn't teach anything about jobs, basic competency isn't required to progress through MSQ and people are coddled into not just mediocrity, but down right vegetable-levels of play. And because skilled players are not okay with that in content designed for them, they have existential issues?

Your obsession with ego is frankly a lot more telling about yourself than the players you criticize.

[Ralph2449]

XIV has a HUGE "toxic/entitled casuals" issue and probably the worst skill: playtime ratio you're gonna see in any video game only because the game doesn't teach anything about jobs, basic competency isn't required to progress through MSQ and people are coddled into not just mediocrity, but down right vegetable-levels of play. And because skilled players are not okay with that in content designed for them, they have existential issues?

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

[ZedxKayn]

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

I mean weren't you saying that people good at the game should know that they are? What point are you trying to make now?

Yes, the majority is bad at the game, because the game offers no tutorial, there is no shame in that (well to an extent at least, until they become toxic about it), but there is shame in coming in high end content unprepared and feeling entitled to a clear. But you don't even have any PF experience, I'm not sure anymore why I'm wasting time trying to argue with someone who genuinely don't know what they are talking about.

[Colt47]

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

Actually, the thing he is pointing out is the technical debt from having the game run for so long. Think about it: Every time they add content and do a new expansion, they redesign the game systems to keep it fresh and mothball the last expansion. Sure, if you are only one expansion in, the last expansions content isn't too hard to manage, but then you go to the third, and now there are two historic sets of content that need retooling. Then you go to the fourth, the fifth, etc.

It is absolutely predictable that the content before the current expansion would no longer serve the purpose of teaching people their jobs. The content is literally no better than a training dummy that offers no hints, and often the dummies don't have enough HP to go through a full rotation.

The only way they can fix the "learn the job" part is to simplify the dps jobs down and have the learning tools be a component of the job itself. Bard and Ninja are horrible to level jump because they lack some of these tools, or they are built into quests that accompany them. The jobs that have the best learning tools are the fixed rotation jobs (think Samurai, Dragoon, Blackmage, Warrior, Redmage, etc). The other problem is that they merged aesthetics with mechanics on the jobs: Yoshi P. even said he would never made the weapons a component of the class itself. There's no reason a bard couldn't use a handgun, or a warrior couldn't opt for a shield and sword.

This is also why I think SE might have a hard time with adding learning tools to savage in-game. I had other ideas for what they could try, but it has to be something that can work with what is already there and easily thrown in, like a learning mode that can reveal the zones a boss targets with an ability. Or hints on what the ability does when the party wipes.

[Awha]

I


Negative experiences is the standard for anyone who will not embrace elitism, tryhardism and metaslaving in WoW, good luck spending hours queing for groups to get gear as a non meta spec, or you ll just say make your own group not realizing you wont be getting people to join unless you have a ridiculous IO score which good luck getting via pugging if you didnt start from day one of the xpac, but hey, Uncle Bobby got you, just buy a wow token for real life money and spend the gold in a boost so maybe after 2 months you will be geared enough that someone might invite cuz of that cuz it certainly wont be cuz your spec aint meta.

That is the thing one does not have to pug. Yes pugs General do just follow the flavor of the month, and you will run into the few that will seethe if you dare play a non meta class I know I currently play feral.That said this mindset does not stem from having a dps meter more so from how blizzard approaches class balance.

So in the end why the beef over a meter that will allow the community to hold others accountable?

[Dzian]

Oh that is why elitists start raging when a game becomes more accessible, content is nerfed, rewards are gives via casual and solo achievements?

They believe they "deserve" those rewards and the "casual plebs" dont, which is exactly why they react so extremely when things like these happen.

Once again if you read the comments or listened to many of the higher players they do not ever say the "casual plebs" don't deserve the rewards.. what they do say is go and do the content and you can gladly have them..

The game is already highly accessible and nerfing the rewards just destroys there relevance... and once again what the game should be doing is lifting players up to the challenges to get rewards.. not catering to the lazy folks who want the shinys with no effort.

The game releases a new piece of content with new shiny rewards.. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has equal access to that content and those rewards.. It's up to them to go and get them... If they choose not to because there lazy or whatever.. thats there decision.. That shouldnt then mean they can demand them another way and devalue them for the players that did choose to get them through the new content...

what it actually is lower end players blaming better players for there own laziness... I don't bother with a lot of higher content much anymore specifically because there no motivation to do so. but again thats my choice. I dont kick off that I cant have that shiny glamour or whatever because i know i can have it if i want it... I just gotta smash the content the same as everyone else did... These days i'm probably more what you refer to as a "casual pleb" than anything else.. but I still dont kick off about things i cant have..

No, [B]for healthy people FF14 is a really fun game that lasts for ages and the continuing increase in subs and popularly supports that,.

I typically don't like being judgemental but I do notice that you only joined the forums in feb 2021. and some of the comments here refer to you only just getting a level 80 job which leads me to assume your relatively new.

if that assumption is accurate then you're not really in a position to say its a really fun game that lasts for ages you haven't played long enough. and if you talk to people or leaders of many of the bigger free companies they'll tell you that most palyers really don't stick around very long.

and most people will tell you how sub counts arent always what they seem. much the same way as player numbers.. they often operate in a past tense to appear bigger.. the player base doesnt really grow that much at all honestly. we still have mostly the same number of servers we had when 2.0 launched. theonly extra ones they added were for the european data centre if i recall. and that was for latency reasons not populatio growth

also a bit of research will soon tell you that many of the servers that do exist are very low population almost dead... because as fast as the game pulls new players in it loses existing ones.

No, for elitists whose ego depends on video game "achievements" and being given exclusive rewards to differentiate them from the "casual plebs", for them then the game is "unrewarding", you see, healthy individuals dont base their ego on video games so that is not what we look for when we play one.

once again your making the mistake that extrinsic motivation is unhealthy... and mistaking it for ego / elitism.. many players dont want the rewards to differntiate themselves from other players they want rewards to symbolise the challenges overcome to get them.. they wouldn't care less if 100% of the player bae did the exact same challenge.. hell most of them would be happy if that was the case as it would mean an incredibly strong community.

I may be wrong. but it seems to me your saying you want to be lazy and have all the shinies handed to you freely on a silver platter and anyone who thinks thats wrong or unfair is an elitist gatekeeping toxic pos..