Why is the Maturity Lvl of People Playing this game so much higher than that of WoW?

[Jin-]

There's nothing "Elitist" about expecting people going into content designed for a certain skill level to be able to meet that level. A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe. A DPS not pulling thier weight due to not knowing how their job plays? Not likely to pass that DPS check, resulting in a wipe. Messing up and making a mistake is fine but going into, say, a savage encounter without a basic understanding of what that entails, with no knowledge of your job and unwillingness to learn, instead just complaining and blaming everyone but yourself and expecting to be carried? That's selfish, entitled and actively wasting the time of 7 other players. That's "toxic casualism".

I would never join a clear party for a fight I haven't at least practiced beforehand on Summoner, a job I never play outside of leveing it, but plently of people do. A lot.

Saying it's "just a video game meant to be fun" is hypocritical as you're denying others legitimate idea of fun, in this case working together as a group to overcome a difficult encounter, to justify you own opinions. People are allowed to play the game how they want, but if you waste the time of others by going into content you are not prepared for or willing to learn, they are within their right to tell you to sling your hook.

Correct, but this way of thinking is bad nowadays. Expecting people to pull their weight is considered having a negative attitude while just a few years ago it was expected as part of our daily survival skills

[Ralph2449]

Fun is subjective.

For many players the fun in MMO instances is in the fact that a lot of content is a team based activity that you get through together as a group. Working together with people to beat content is fun for them. Toxic elitism is expecting high end performance in casual content, which is unnecessary. Mistakes, deaths, wipes and learning is fine if someone is trying. However, "toxic casualism" is where one players comes in and works against the team, say an Ice mage with gear 50ilv too low and reacts aggressively towards tips because not bothering is more "fun" for them. In this case one person is disregarding the overall experience and fun for 3-7 other people playing the game as intended, to prioritize their own fun. Sort of like joining football team and insisting on using a tennis racquet because it's just a game and it's meant to be fun.

This selfish attitude and feeling of entitlement to having everything their way and being carried, regardless of others, is unique to the western playerbase. It is not the sort of behavior things like parser bans were designed for.

And if everyone was competent and worked well together all group content would be an absolute roflstomp including the high end group content, the game is not designed to require anywhere near this level of performance because it is a video game, not someone's main source of self worth or a job, so even if someone is performing below average in a group you can still do the content JUST FINE.

The issue seems to be that people who have attached their ego on their performance seem to have a really huge dislike of those casuals who dont obsess over it in a game that neither asks nor requires it unless you start telling me those people who want to play "ice mage" joined your ultimate group, it is actually a good thing not everyone is great otherwise the content would be an absolutely boring roflstomp all the way up. Carrying people is normal, you do that with your friends, you do that in your guild, you do that in roulettes all day and as long as the content does not require everyone to be performing great there is literally 0 problem with people who play a game for fun, not for parsing and to get self worth through video game performance. Now if the group is below average and seem to have problems and instead try to blame the one person below them, then sorry you failed as a group, not because of that one person considering how generous the requirements are for most of group content.

Thankfully this game is very different than WoW which is exactly why I like it and the community so much more, because that elitist attitude doesnt fly.

And I ll remind you that a video game is about having fun, not being forced to play or do something for the sake of someone ELSE's fun.

A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe.

And you know what we did during those rare times? We voted to abandon, no drama, no angry attacks, no whining, we simply moved on and kept having fun in the video game we play instead of pretending some kind of disaster has befallen us

[Fluxating]

And you know what we did during those rare times? We voted to abandon, no drama, no angry attacks, no whining, we simply moved on and kept having fun in the video game we play instead of pretending some kind of disaster has befallen us

Except it isn't rare. It happens constantly. That's why these "Elitists" are fed up, because there are far too many people whining because they don't want to put any effort into improving and throw tantrums instead. It's not just the raids either, it happened with Chrysalis in 2.5, Shinryu during the first couple of weeks of Stormblood, as well as Hades in Shadowbringers. Content requiring just a basic understanding of the game just to progress the story, and far too many couldn't even manage that. Having a basic understanding on how the game works and how to play it to get past that level of content isn't difficult, but some people still don't want to put that small amount of effort in and complain when no one wants to carry them through it.

[Raelsar]

Honestly when I see people using the term "toxic casualism" I actually feel happy and hopeful for the game because at the end of the day it is just a video game meant to be fun, toxic casualism means that attempts from the "elitists" to tell people how to play and push their performance gogogo based attitude are met with very negative reactions so unlike WoW they cant turn or shape this game into an elitist tryhard mess because people recognize what they are trying to do and shut them off.

Eh... it's not that simple, but I think we can see some high-end players (perhaps it could be those more accustomed to WoW's more "direct" cultural norms) chaffing under the enforced requirement to behave themselves.

I'm also seeing a lot of both accentuating the negative here, with those who are preferring FFXIV highlighting their negative experiences from WoW... and those who dislike FFXIV's stronger moderation come across as a bit paranoid and are quick to point out people lashing out at them with statements like "You don't pay my sub!". In my experience, I honestly have not run into the latter at any point in FFXIV; while I've been an observer of WoW's more explosive community on many occasions. Anyhow, it's definitely easier to remember the negative experiences compared to the positive ones for most people.

My own behaviour did not change going from WoW to FFXIV, and I have been a hard-ass when needed; the one trick I think many don't realize is that requires a careful approach so that you don't come off as being antagonistic.

If I were to put together a basic set of guidelines on how to do so:

• Try to stick to giving explicit directions. This can be things like telling people to dodge right or left, in or out depending on a boss' less explicit telegraphs. Basically, doing call-outs for the fight; doing this out of habit also gets players accustomed to you saying things which can be a bit blunt.
• Address the group as a whole as much as possible. Unless there's a specific reason, such telling the last healer up to use LB3 or which DPS should be using LB3, don't name people.
• Avoid criticism in general, and especially don't single people out for criticism. If you must point out an error, be specific about it. Say what the error was and how to correct it.
• Acknowledge your own errors... and even throw in some self-depreciating humour in there, which helps offset you being harsh when necessary.
• When players improve and do things right, acknowledge it. Don't act as if it's nothing and expected, which makes you come off as being a jerk; saying "good job" when people do it right goes a LONG way.
• If things aren't going to work out... just say it's not working and leave it at that. Going on tear towards the group just makes everyone miserable. Treat it as "step back and think about it for a while".

In other words, lead by example.
Don't be bossy, be the guy who helps the team out.

[KeshLives]

There's nothing "Elitist" about expecting people going into content designed for a certain skill level to be able to meet that level. A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe. A DPS not pulling thier weight due to not knowing how their job plays? Not likely to pass that DPS check, resulting in a wipe. Messing up and making a mistake is fine but going into, say, a savage encounter without a basic understanding of what that entails, with no knowledge of your job and unwillingness to learn, instead just complaining and blaming everyone but yourself and expecting to be carried? That's selfish, entitled and actively wasting the time of 7 other players. That's "toxic casualism".

You can bring that attitude to Savage/Ultimate/Extreme, and that's good. You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

The trouble is when that attitude and attention to other people's play instead of taking care of your own play, is extended to normal and leveling content. At Normal and the Hard/Heroic level, people need to learn, and, some won't, but, that is expected by the game designers. Basically, when you start getting on everyone else around you about gameplay *at normal or hard difficulty*...you're being a jerk. Don't do it. Go calm down, or go run something savage/ultimate/extreme where you and your mentality belongs.

I'm a good player, but I stopped running extreme/savage/ultimate *because of* people with your mentality, who won't ease off for new people or low difficulty, and frankly, are always looking for someone to blame for anything at all that goes wrong. I was a raid main tank for 7 years. I know how to dodge things, and, frankly, in leveling stuff in FFXIV, I can carry a person if need be. Don't need rage or screaming at people at that level. Isn't needed, it serves no purpose. Don't do it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

[Themarvin]

I always say when at something new myself or am more experienced... that they most likely would die a few times in a good sense... mainly because you can really only explain it that well, but you need to try it on your own body first to see how it actually act out.

That is why so many vidoes is inaccurate and when or if have to got and watch them... first of all ignore the persons when speakign nonsense, shut it out... but pay attention when showing mechanics only as in only take what you can actually use.... and also be open to other solutions in how to dodge stuff, as it is out there and does not always reflect one way only.

It helps.. also savage and ultimates can be cleared by anyone as long as got the motivation to do so, it is not as elite as claimed as casual people manege to get through it as well.

[Fluxating]

You can bring that attitude to Savage/Ultimate/Extreme, and that's good. You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

The trouble is when that attitude and attention to other people's play instead of taking care of your own play, is extended to normal and leveling content. At Normal and the Hard/Heroic level, people need to learn, and, some won't, but, that is expected by the game designers. Basically, when you start getting on everyone else around you about gameplay *at normal or hard difficulty*...you're being a jerk. Don't do it. Go calm down, or go run something savage/ultimate/extreme where you and your mentality belongs.

I'm a good player, but I stopped running extreme/savage/ultimate *because of* people with your mentality, who won't ease off for new people or low difficulty, and frankly, are always looking for someone to blame for anything at all that goes wrong. I was a raid main tank for 7 years. I know how to dodge things, and, frankly, in leveling stuff in FFXIV, I can carry a person if need be. Don't need rage or screaming at people at that level. Isn't needed, it serves no purpose. Don't do it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Also wanting to clear content doesn't automatically make it about self-worth, but nice attempt at a strawman anyway.

[KeshLives]

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Also wanting to clear content doesn't automatically make it about self-worth, but nice attempt at a strawman anyway.

Standard WoW player response. Have a nice day. GGHF and all that.

You're obviously *more important* than all those scrubs around you, so you should *of course* do whatever you like. /sarc

[Kaurhz]

This community really seems to forget that learning, or overcoming a 'barrier' is not an immediate, but rather a progressive thing, and trying to force it as immediate is only ever going to trigger poor responses. You aren't going to see an immense or immediate improvement from the normality of the player base.

and no, being passive-aggressive or condescending with advice isn't going to win you a golden star with many people either.

[Penthea]

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.