Will there be an official response about Party Finder advertising?

[Saefinn]

snip.

With it not breaking the ToS is really the point as people suggesting if these were push to shout chat, it's more visible therefore more people report them, but they're not going to go after anybody if it turns out they've not broken the ToS and those ads that minors might see not only stay up, but are more visible to them. With regards to the adult website comparison, the law may not necessarily see it that way as both parties would be engaging in sexual activity, whether it's erotic writing or cyber sex, if it involves a minor then it's the adult that gets into trouble. Somewhere like here in the UK that could potentially ruin your life because you'd be tried as a sex offender which means you're on a sex offenders list and that restricts you in so many ways. And it doesn't matter if you thought it was an adult, some laws on this can be pretty brutal. So I view it as a risk, sure there's things people can do to mitigate that risk and police their communities to make it a slim chance of happening to them.

From a moderation perspective, I don't see any of these suggestions (including my own) to really be any real solution...including the scorched earth one. All scorched earth does is create problems for people who're completely innocent of wrong doing and in effect punish them for another's actions whilst just pushing these communities underground and in the shadows. It means people end up doing this in secret, which sounds like it'd keep underaged people safe, because there's less in the way of advertisement for minors to see. But there's also less in the way of people co-operating with the game's moderation and a disincentive to report suspicious behaviour from people within those communities because hey, they don't want to get banned. And the visibility for GM's goes waaaay down.

And this is where I draw back to a previous point. YoshiP said they have legal support in most countries for investigating these. I expect their strategy is based on what data they have and what legal advice they have. I strongly suspect they already have their best strategy for dealing with these. YoshiP's advice was to report them and they can investigate. If people keep doing that when they see things like brothels being publically advertised then the best thing you can do is report them.

[Melichoir]

With it not breaking the ToS is really the point as people suggesting if these were push to shout chat, it's more visible therefore more people report them, but they're not going to go after anybody if it turns out they've not broken the ToS and those ads that minors might see not only stay up, but are more visible to them.

I dont think it's as visible as that? Typically Ive seen them sit in the misc or private sections of PF. Not always, but I think theres a difference (albeit subtle) between actively shouting it and passively putting up a sign people might see. It is also worth noting that we are discussing the lounges in the assumption of cybering, but that doesnt necessarily have to be the case despite being 18+. Simple adult themes would qualify, or the overt use and suggestion of restricted substances like alcohol or drugs. This is a bit of an ambiguity that would be hard to moderate as it were.

With regards to the adult website comparison, the law may not necessarily see it that way as both parties would be engaging in sexual activity, whether it's erotic writing or cyber sex, if it involves a minor then it's the adult that gets into trouble. Somewhere like here in the UK that could potentially ruin your life because you'd be tried as a sex offender which means you're on a sex offenders list and that restricts you in so many ways. And it doesn't matter if you thought it was an adult, some laws on this can be pretty brutal. So I view it as a risk, sure there's things people can do to mitigate that risk and police their communities to make it a slim chance of happening to them.

Yes, but it can also swing the other way. If there was the attempt or success of a minor to pass themselves off as an adult in a manner that itd be hard for the adult in the situation to make the proper determination, it tends to fall on the side of less severe punishments. Im by no means advocating that adults get away with abusing minors, to be clear, but lets not suggest that there arent minors who abuse systems to pass as adults when they shouldnt.

This all being said, what you are suggesting sits more with the individuals than the business entity. In this case, youd have two people interacting. SE only would provide the 'platform' for the interaction, but not the moderation of the interactions. They have reasonable liability if they come across and actual predator/grooming situation and ignore it. But if theyre unaware of a specific situation, it is left more in the hands of the individual participants. I happen that this is actually the reason why you dont see moderation. The more 'hands off' they are, the less liable they become. The more hands on they are, it raises the questions of "Why did you moderate x but not y".

From a moderation perspective, I don't see any of these suggestions (including my own) to really be any real solution...including the scorched earth one. All scorched earth does is create problems for people who're completely innocent of wrong doing and in effect punish them for another's actions whilst just pushing these communities underground and in the shadows. It means people end up doing this in secret, which sounds like it'd keep underaged people safe, because there's less in the way of advertisement for minors to see. But there's also less in the way of people co-operating with the game's moderation and a disincentive to report suspicious behaviour from people within those communities because hey, they don't want to get banned. And the visibility for GM's goes waaaay down.

I dont think it really protects minors from it by being less visible. To be frank, I dont think minors (unless theyre explicitly children aged - so 12 or less) are as stupid as we like to think. If they want to find it, theyll find it. Much like most well enough know what is implied with 18+. By pushing it underground, minors looking for it will find it, and it will be less visible to be moderated. Im always more of hte mindset that keeping things relatively public works best for moderation purposes cause it keeps more eyes on it to catch dubious activities.

And this is where I draw back to a previous point. YoshiP said they have legal support in most countries for investigating these. I expect their strategy is based on what data they have and what legal advice they have. I strongly suspect they already have their best strategy for dealing with these. YoshiP's advice was to report them and they can investigate. If people keep doing that when they see things like brothels being publically advertised then the best thing you can do is report them.

As I mentioned above, I think the current moderation is done by intention, and likely cause of that legal support. It is better to be hands off and claim ignorance than to be hands on and be well aware of all the things that occur. If a problem comes out into the open in a very overt way, like shouting in public to go to the 18+ 'RP lounges'. I feel the thinking is "As long as it remains in PF under some of hte sub tabs in a passive way, then it's whatever." Theyll take action when it moves to a much more public and active role, itll be addressed.

[Saefinn]

I dont think it's as visible as that? Typically Ive seen them sit in the misc or private sections of PF. Not always, but I think theres a difference (albeit subtle) between actively shouting it and passively putting up a sign people might see. It is also worth noting that we are discussing the lounges in the assumption of cybering, but that doesnt necessarily have to be the case despite being 18+. Simple adult themes would qualify, or the overt use and suggestion of restricted substances like alcohol or drugs. This is a bit of an ambiguity that would be hard to moderate as it were.

The reason I mention shouts is because the line of reasoning that I've been responding to has been to remove comments entirely from PF and let this all move into shout, which I am suggesting is a worse idea than letting it stay in PF. And agreed with the adult themes, they can anything, people are mainly talking about ERP and Cybering (which are not always the same thing). The wording I used in my example was suggestive enough to communicate it's adult as in lewd but its wording doesn't violate ToS, nor does necessarily the stuff they're doing, so my argument here is that for the argument that we should move it to shout where people will more likely report it and also turn off shout chat if spam is too much doesn't really work if the adverts themselves don't break the ToS and if their activities don't break the ToS because the GM's would let it continue so for the argument being "this is how we'll keep this away from minors" is moot, because it won't.

Yes, but it can also swing the other way. If there was the attempt or success of a minor to pass themselves off as an adult in a manner that itd be hard for the adult in the situation to make the proper determination, it tends to fall on the side of less severe punishments. Im by no means advocating that adults get away with abusing minors, to be clear, but lets not suggest that there arent minors who abuse systems to pass as adults when they shouldnt.

That would depend on what the law decides and that can vary country to country. Some law views the adult as the sole responsibility and that they hold the responsibility of verifying the age of the participant. Somebody gave an anecdote of a bouncer who lost their job despite the fact the person found a way to cheat the system and get into a bar underaged. Some places can be harsh. So this is the risk you take, it's also the risk you take working in hospitality, retail and so on, because you can get into trouble serving underaged people there too. It's why here in the UK the policy is if somebody looks under 25, you ID them, even though the legal age for most things is 18.

This all being said, what you are suggesting sits more with the individuals than the business entity. In this case, youd have two people interacting. SE only would provide the 'platform' for the interaction, but not the moderation of the interactions. They have reasonable liability if they come across and actual predator/grooming situation and ignore it. But if theyre unaware of a specific situation, it is left more in the hands of the individual participants. I happen that this is actually the reason why you dont see moderation. The more 'hands off' they are, the less liable they become. The more hands on they are, it raises the questions of "Why did you moderate x but not y".

Yoshi P in an interview I think was clear in that if you do anything illegal then they will take action against your account. With reports they will investigate them. With in game brothels YoshiP explicitly said to report them when people see them. He didn't indicate they'd ban them out right, but put in two emphases, one in that they will investigate it and two that they have legal support to help them in most countries. So I think where they are from a legal standpoint is likely to be safe and that they are doing the appropriate things as far as their platform goes. When it comes to individual responsibility, you break the law then of course you're responsible. Unfortunately, you can have all the best intentions and be certain you're doing the right thing and then find you've broken the law.

I dont think it really protects minors from it by being less visible. To be frank, I dont think minors (unless theyre explicitly children aged - so 12 or less) are as stupid as we like to think. If they want to find it, theyll find it. Much like most well enough know what is implied with 18+. By pushing it underground, minors looking for it will find it, and it will be less visible to be moderated. Im always more of hte mindset that keeping things relatively public works best for moderation purposes cause it keeps more eyes on it to catch dubious activities.

I agree it doesn't protect minors by being less visible. If anything I think having it visible enough for GM's to be able to moderate and 'okay' enough for people within those communities to report it without repercussions when they themselves have committed no wrong doing is probably better at protecting minors. Because let's face it, who's most likely going to spot a sexual predator in an MMO? People who engage in sexual activities. From a previous commenter of somebody in one of those communities, they pushed out somebody who was doing inappropriate things with a minor and rejected them outright and made them well known. And the GM's knew about it and the police got involved.

And I agree teenagers, aren't stupid. If anything they are intelligent, naive perhaps and in many cases still oblivious to consequences or apathetic of them. I mean, many people try to see naughty websites before they're old enough and many people still try to buy alcohol underage, many succeed...myself included.

As I mentioned above, I think the current moderation is done by intention, and likely cause of that legal support. It is better to be hands off and claim ignorance than to be hands on and be well aware of all the things that occur. If a problem comes out into the open in a very overt way, like shouting in public to go to the 18+ 'RP lounges'. I feel the thinking is "As long as it remains in PF under some of hte sub tabs in a passive way, then it's whatever." Theyll take action when it moves to a much more public and active role, itll be addressed.

I don't think it's entirely hands off. More if they catch somebody guilty of wrong doing they'll act. At least going by YoshiP's comments about then investigating these cases and encouraging people to report them.

[Melichoir]

That would depend on what the law decides and that can vary country to country. Some law views the adult as the sole responsibility and that they hold the responsibility of verifying the age of the participant. Somebody gave an anecdote of a bouncer who lost their job despite the fact the person found a way to cheat the system and get into a bar underaged. Some places can be harsh. So this is the risk you take, it's also the risk you take working in hospitality, retail and so on, because you can get into trouble serving underaged people there too. It's why here in the UK the policy is if somebody looks under 25, you ID them, even though the legal age for most things is 18.

In California, believe its set to 30 or younger. Been a while since I read the sign on the counters. But I get the policy. But by that same policy, if somebody looks under then 25, presents you with an ID that seems to check out, only for you to find out later it was a fake ID and theyre actually 15, what are you to do as a business in that case. Even as a sales associate, if you follow the instructed training, and it still passes, youre not likely gonna get fired because what are you expected to do in that situation. I can actually speak from experience as working for a corporation as a cashier, Ive seen it happen to fellow employees. Corporate will even go through video tapes of the registers to see what you did and if it checks out with best practices. No one got fined, no one went to jail, no one got fired if everything was above board.

Th bouncer anecdote Im not familiar with. But I wonder what the full circumstances are. Did the bouncer get fired by the establishment, or was he arrested and jailed/imprisoned? Did he have other issues that prompted the termination. I get rules can be strict, no doubt. But there's a difference between going after abusers and people reasonably getting baited into something illegal without their awareness. Even in California they got pretty steep rules for said things, and people dont go to jail or get fined for selling to minors on accident as long as reasonable procedures are followed. If that were the case, almost no one would be in business cause that happens a lot more frequently than people would imagine or like.

Yoshi P in an interview I think was clear in that if you do anything illegal then they will take action against your account. With reports they will investigate them. With in game brothels YoshiP explicitly said to report them when people see them. He didn't indicate they'd ban them out right, but put in two emphases, one in that they will investigate it and two that they have legal support to help them in most countries. So I think where they are from a legal standpoint is likely to be safe and that they are doing the appropriate things as far as their platform goes.

I think this is said/done because their legal support is telling them too. What is the best way to cover butt as much as possible? Well, have a report system in place and tell people to report suspicious activity, then investigate. If nothing comes up that they can prove is bad news bears, they just say 'alrighty then'. That being said, they probably dont investigate every nook and cranny in every situation because it creates a cost and liability issue. If their normal procedure was to dig into 2 years of messaging, monitor them for months at a time, check the account information and verify the person's age, and something bad does end up getting through because of happenstance or a spot of negligence, Theyre more liable and on the hook due to how involved their practices are. It would be expected of them because they made it their standard procedure. Not to mention that this level of scrutiny may violate privacy rights in a variety of countries, as well as be resource heavy.

Unfortunately, because the law half the time isnt so much about justice but how to game society, theyre probably doing cursory investigations and if nothing jumps out, they say alright and move on.

I agree it doesn't protect minors by being less visible. If anything I think having it visible enough for GM's to be able to moderate and 'okay' enough for people within those communities to report it without repercussions when they themselves have committed no wrong doing is probably better at protecting minors. Because let's face it, who's most likely going to spot a sexual predator in an MMO? People who engage in sexual activities. From a previous commenter of somebody in one of those communities, they pushed out somebody who was doing inappropriate things with a minor and rejected them outright and made them well known. And the GM's knew about it and the police got involved.

I wonder why the minor was that environment in the first place if it was known, but that aside, yeah I more or less agree with everything here. Best thing would be to pull people into the loop and have them keep eyes on the content theyre participating in in a productive way. Hand more people flashlights to shine in dark corners then behave like those corners dont exist.

And I agree teenagers, aren't stupid. If anything they are intelligent, naive perhaps and in many cases still oblivious to consequences or apathetic of them. I mean, many people try to see naughty websites before they're old enough and many people still try to buy alcohol underage, many succeed...myself included.

While this might be an incredibly unpopular opinion, I think that this is just part of being a teenager in general and should be expected. In some capacity or another, theyre gonna get into trouble with a variety of things. Whether its looking adult things, drinking or other drugs like cigarettes, a lot of this crops up cause it's adult, taboo, or a mix of both along with figuring out junk at that age, teens get up into that shenanigans. With that in mind, it's probably better to keep an eye out for bad shenanigans and keep people safe by reporting bad junk than it would be to be an overbearing nanny or outright abolishing stuff because "Think of the innocent children" which stems from a denial that teens are teens and will do teen things at times (to some extent. There's obviously boundaries).

[Themarvin]

In the end of it... there is no pro's posting this ingame anywhere, only cons, and as it is... it could be or there could be a ring of people with really bad morale, whoms option is to try and lure themself onto minors, that is why it should be prohibited due to it is entirely out of SE's field to be able to monitor, and if they start getting reports in about their game, and also it would be best to prohibit the advertizing in any form due to most of all protecting the people themself from not being fooled by a minor themself either, and end in a very not so fun case.

It is reportable if getting on the bad side of the fence, and GM can see all the chatlogs, if there is a report bound to it.. also there is one more vital thing... both sides can be victims in this as for hate reports as well.

Also this bigger warning label onto something, also the bigger desire for people to over look it, just look on the WWW in what is most searched for.

[Saefinn]

In the end of it... there is no pro's posting this ingame anywhere, only cons, and as it is... it could be or there could be a ring of people with really bad morale, whoms option is to try and lure themself onto minors, that is why it should be prohibited due to it is entirely out of SE's field to be able to monitor, and if they start getting reports in about their game, and also it would be best to prohibit the advertizing in any form due to most of all protecting the people themself from not being fooled by a minor themself either, and end in a very not so fun case.

It is reportable if getting on the bad side of the fence, and GM can see all the chatlogs, if there is a report bound to it.. also there is one more vital thing... both sides can be victims in this as for hate reports as well.

Also this bigger warning label onto something, also the bigger desire for people to over look it, just look on the WWW in what is most searched for.

So they prohibit advertising altogether and that's instead of investigating case-by-case for any wrong doing like they do now then does it stop anybody with bad intentions from doing the bad thing? No. Their activity is pushed to using Discord communities, Guilded communities, in game connections, small public spaces they're less likely to get caught. What is the knock-on effect? The GM's lose a lot of visibility. This is why I think they're not being taken down on purpose because they can investigate them for wrong doing and act if they have been found guilty of it. And people then are reporting them. Your hypothetical ring of people would then be visible to the GM's, they could investigate and find "something is going on wrong here" and do something about it. This is what I suspect their approach is. From YoshiP's interview it sounds like that have thought about how they should handle it and they've gotten legal guidance on handling and investigating them, so I trust they're handling it in the most appropriate legal fashion if that's what they've done.

[Themarvin]

So they prohibit advertising altogether and that's instead of investigating case-by-case for any wrong doing like they do now then does it stop anybody with bad intentions from doing the bad thing? No. Their activity is pushed to using Discord communities, Guilded communities, in game connections, small public spaces they're less likely to get caught. What is the knock-on effect? The GM's lose a lot of visibility. This is why I think they're not being taken down on purpose because they can investigate them for wrong doing and act if they have been found guilty of it. And people then are reporting them. Your hypothetical ring of people would then be visible to the GM's, they could investigate and find "something is going on wrong here" and do something about it. This is what I suspect their approach is. From YoshiP's interview it sounds like that have thought about how they should handle it and they've gotten legal guidance on handling and investigating them, so I trust they're handling it in the most appropriate legal fashion if that's what they've done.

I am just trying to point out, that SE, is not going to be on the losing end in this matter and it would be a horrible PR for them, asking them for permitting this niche to be an open option, it is like an invitation to the cyberworld of adult content if they ever permitted it or gave options and special flags to, there is not many options to go by in this matter.

[Saefinn]

I am just trying to point out, that SE, is not going to be on the losing end in this matter and it would be a horrible PR for them, asking them for permitting this niche to be an open option, it is like an invitation to the cyberworld of adult content if they ever permitted it or gave options and special flags to, there is not many options to go by in this matter.

Fair. They can't really come out saying "this is okay" or "you won't be moderated for engaging in this" but to instead saying putting emphasis on what it unacceptable, which in this case is breaking the law and violating the ToS. It then avoids making affirmative statements or stances. It then brings ambiguity on stuff that has a risk of breaking the law or breaking the ToS and people have to factor in the risk rather than assume "ah okay, it's all fine, they said so".

[van_arn]

Fair. They can't really come out saying "this is okay" or "you won't be moderated for engaging in this" but to instead saying putting emphasis on what it unacceptable, which in this case is breaking the law and violating the ToS. It then avoids making affirmative statements or stances. It then brings ambiguity on stuff that has a risk of breaking the law or breaking the ToS and people have to factor in the risk rather than assume "ah okay, it's all fine, they said so".

I’m fine with them turning a blind eye to erp in private, in the same way they turn a blind eye to parsers in private. The instant that touches the public sphere is the instant the thunderbolt should strike, though.

Yes, brothel ads should be removed from pf and shout. Perhaps I was being too generous thinking people would just turn off shout.

Allow brothels no ingame avenue to advertise. They should do all of their communication on discord like the rmt tos dodgers they emulate.

[Saefinn]

I’m fine with them turning a blind eye to erp in private, in the same way they turn a blind eye to parsers in private. The instant that touches the public sphere is the instant the thunderbolt should strike, though.

Yes, brothel ads should be removed from pf and shout. Perhaps I was being too generous thinking people would just turn off shout.

Allow brothels no ingame avenue to advertise. They should do all of their communication on discord like the rmt tos dodgers they emulate.

Then I pose the question, but a hypothetical one because obviously we don't have the data but I expect the GM's would.

Would you rather:
They don't stop people advertising ERP venues but it means the GM's can moderate these communities better and catch out anybody who is doing stuff wrong, especially with minors? And therefore better prevent and catch more wrong doing.
or
They put a hard line action of keeping it out of PF & Shout but this is all pushed underground and out of the way, you no longer see it and it has no place out there, but GM's no longer have the visibility and it's a lot harder for them to catch wrong doing? Including stuff happening with minors and catch less wrong doing.