How does FF14 compare to WoW? (And other MMOs)

[Edax]

That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is. Raiding is just a method of giving players stuff that scratch the itch. It scratches the itch of cooperative play, and it scratches the itch of completing difficult content. It's not in single player games because single player games are not cooperative at all.

Now is there a game that revolves around cooperative play? Yeah of course. Plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around difficult content? Yeah plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around cooperative play that tackles difficult content? Yes, a lot of it actually.

So a game that revolves around raiding as a concept (Monster Hunter) can work. It's just up to the devs if they would like to implement that or not.
Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege. But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

[Payotz]

Not necessarily.
The term is so vague that it can easily encompass single player games where you raid with AI allies.
As long as you're part of a group (human or otherwise) the term sticks.

I honestly don't consider content with AI allies as raiding. I see them more as single player content due to the fact that you're playing with bots, not other people. I also apply the same logic with PvP, "PvP" with bots isn't really PvP, it needs players, like how Raiding needs players. Unless the AI starts speaking in voice chat and becoming sentient, then I'll keep holding that view.

But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.

Why not both? It's fun and it's fun to do it with people. That's like implying that playing Team sports isn't fun. Team sports are fun because the game is fun and playing with other people are fun.

And it's not like raiders don't socialize either, we do. There's multiple discord servers related to raiding, people arguing about rotations, theorycrafting about melds, sharing fight-specific strats and tips. Like even just doing content is socializing, especially with a group of friends. People make fun of each other for getting damage down, Healers call out what they heal or who they will rez. People call out who's north blue or south blue, and people talk shit between pulls, and meme between pulls.

Hell, I've made a lot of my good friends from raiding in this game. We're not all robots that only cares about the order of how we press our buttons. There's a reason that it's called a raiding community.

If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

What it definitely needs is repeatable raids and content that's outside of the 8-Man Savages and Ultimate. And frankly, it can benefit from that focus a whole lot. Maybe Savage dungeons? Maybe Savage raid mutations? I don't know, but it needs something.

But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege.

But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

This is a direct criticism to FFXIV content in general. They're pretty static, so after doing it once, most people just either farm for gear or do it once and it's over. I'll give you that the choreographed static mechanics doesn't work in single player, but it's because it doesn't work as repeatable content as well. I'm 100% in support of making raid content replayable other than static.

Regardles though, most games that does have raiding aren't like this. Some, like Destiny 2, rely on the non-static raid design and the good gunplay to make things repeatable. Some, like WoW, rely on pure raid design that's mostly unpredictable, and some like unconventional games like GTFO and Monster Hunter rely on good 'ole RNG to make it replayable.

I agree that FFXIV raiding needs work, but saying that no game can actually revolve around raiding and have it fun is just an uninformed opinion.

[Penthea]

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

I am genuinely confused about this statement. Mmos by design heavily rely on content being repeatable. For example you have to keep doing the same content over and over again to get gear whether that's through currency or loot drops.

[Payotz]

I am genuinely confused about this statement. Mmos by design heavily rely on content being repeatable. For example you have to keep doing the same content over and over again to get gear whether that's through currency or loot drops.

I meant that most content in FFXIV is a one and done thing. MSQ cutscenes are great, the solo instances are great, the writing is amazing.
The only main problem is that well, you run through it once and then you're done.

The only content that's repeatable in the game is pretty much:
- 450 tome grind once per week
- Roulettes
- Savage Raids once a week (with the addition of parse running that's not supported by the game)
- EX fights
- Bozja
- BLU

That's pretty much it. There's content in there that's replayable, but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.
I'm not saying that they don't have any content that's replayable. In fact, BLU and Bozja is a really good step forward in that direction, they just need more of it.

[Penthea]

I meant that most content in FFXIV is a one and done thing. MSQ cutscenes are great, the solo instances are great, the writing is amazing.
The only main problem is that well, you run through it once and then you're done.

The only content that's repeatable in the game is pretty much:
- 450 tome grind once per week
- Roulettes
- Savage Raids once a week (with the addition of parse running that's not supported by the game)
- EX fights
- Bozja
- BLU

That's pretty much it. There's content in there that's replayable, but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.
I'm not saying that they don't have any content that's replayable. In fact, BLU and Bozja is a really good step forward in that direction, they just need more of it.

You forgot a few:

• The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
• Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
• It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
• Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
• Pvp
• Hunt marks
• Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable

but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.

Hrmm...not all players rp though. Many are happy to continue repeating the in-game content SE provides. As for idling, well everyone does that. People take breaks to eat, walk the dog, etc. How common it may look is hugely due to how the game doesn't log you out after a certain period of inactivity. I am certainly guilty of leaving myself logged in when I go to play console games.

[ItMe]

I honestly don't consider content with AI allies as raiding. I see them more as single player content due to the fact that you're playing with bots, not other people. I also apply the same logic with PvP, "PvP" with bots isn't really PvP, it needs players, like how Raiding needs players. Unless the AI starts speaking in voice chat and becoming sentient, then I'll keep holding that view.

I think Mavrias summed it up best when they said:

I think there's just a fundamental difference between our definitions of raiding as it pertains to single player games, which is fine.

Why not both? It's fun and it's fun to do it with people. That's like implying that playing Team sports isn't fun. Team sports are fun because the game is fun and playing with other people are fun.

You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

And it's not like raiders don't socialize either, we do. There's multiple discord servers related to raiding, people arguing about rotations, theorycrafting about melds, sharing fight-specific strats and tips. Like even just doing content is socializing, especially with a group of friends. People make fun of each other for getting damage down, Healers call out what they heal or who they will rez. People call out who's north blue or south blue, and people talk shit between pulls, and meme between pulls.

Hell, I've made a lot of my good friends from raiding in this game. We're not all robots that only cares about the order of how we press our buttons. There's a reason that it's called a raiding community.

I dont understand what this is in response to.
I never suggested raiders dont socialize. I feel like I actually learned into that being one of the core draws to raiding.

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

What it definitely needs is repeatable raids and content that's outside of the 8-Man Savages and Ultimate. And frankly, it can benefit from that focus a whole lot. Maybe Savage dungeons? Maybe Savage raid mutations? I don't know, but it needs something.

Yeah yeah YEAH!
(I agree with you a lot here)
Side fluff can be super important.
Having players engage consistently with one element/activity is fine. The more that one thing dominates the games design... well that can lead to problems.

Some games are 80% one activity with some peripheral things for the player to do (like many racing games).
And that's not inherently bad.

Some games are 100% their core activity... like Tetris.
And Tetris rocks!

But raiding? Is that a strong enough core to build a large percentage of your game around?
As fun as it is, I personally don't think so.

[Payotz]

I think Mavrias summed it up best when they said:

That's fair then. I'll go forward with my definition.

You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

Yes it is. It's both fun and socialization.
We enjoy the combat, we just need it to be more repeatable.
We play this game for fun, and we tackle this type of content for fun.
The feeling of actually completing a fight is amazing, and the adrenaline is something no other content that's currently in the game can replicate.

I dont understand what this is in response to.
I never suggested raiders dont socialize. I feel like I actually learned into that being one of the core draws to raiding.

Then apologies for that. I assumed you implied that we didn't socialize due to your question.

Yeah yeah YEAH!
(I agree with you a lot here)
Side fluff can be super important.
Having players engage consistently with one element/activity is fine. The more that one thing dominates the games design... well that can lead to problems.

Some games are 80% one activity with some peripheral things for the player to do (like many racing games).
And that's not inherently bad.

Some games are 100% their core activity... like Tetris.
And Tetris rocks!

But raiding? Is that a strong enough core to build a large percentage of your game around?
As fun as it is, I personally don't think so.

And like I said. It can, as games like Monster Hunter, GTFO, Dauntless, God Eater demonstrate.
Will it actually stand up with FFXIV style of raiding? No.
What needs to be done? Change up the style of raiding from static to something that's dynamic and repeatable.

[Jojoya]

You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

Of course raiding can be both. But it's not going to be both for everyone. Not everyone likes the same thing.

Don't enjoy raiding in a MMO? Do the other content. There's plenty of it. Those who do enjoy raiding will do that and skip the other pieces of content they don't enjoy.

[Edax]

I agree that FFXIV raiding needs work, but saying that no game can actually revolve around raiding and have it fun is just an uninformed opinion.

I point to the fact that such games aren't already all over the place. Plenty of games have team deathmatch and horde mode, few if any are dedicated to raiding in a single player context. Raiding for the most part, seems to have spawned from the MMORPG phenomenon and for the most part stayed there, having evolved as large scale dungeons of the classic old-school RPGs. The old dungeoneering of classic RPG has stuck around through, usually with the use of puzzles in single player campaigns, raiding remains niche.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about raiding being about socializing and cooperative play. But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.
If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

I think you are for the most part correct. Without the socializing and cooperative play, the gameplay just isn't that fun when it has to standalone. Imagine if they removed all the rewards for raiding in WoW, would that many people still do it because they consider it fun?

[Payotz]

I point to the fact that such games aren't already all over the place. Plenty of games have team deathmatch and horde mode, few if any are dedicated to raiding in a single player context.
Raiding for the most part, seems to have spawned from the MMORPG phenomenon and for the most part stayed there, having evolved as large scale dungeons of the classic old-school RPGs. The old dungeoneering of classic RPG has stuck around through, usually with the use of puzzles in single player campaigns, raiding remains niche.

It's not in single player because it's not meant to be single player. It's meant to be a cooperative PvE experience with other people.
This is again, just like saying that PvP is doable in a Single Player experience, it's not, and putting team deathmatch PvP on top of it makes it a PvE experience if it's against bots.

GTFO isn't all over the place. In fact it's still focused on the "raiding" aspect of it, same as Monster Hunter and the same as Dauntless. These games don't have a "team deathmatch" mode or even a "horde mode" and I reckon there are plenty more games like this that you and I haven't discovered yet that does well with this concept. "Raiding" in the sense of Cooperative Hardcore PvE is still alive and well even if it's the Only element to the game.

And it's always been a huge draw to other MMOs that doesn't have it as its only single element like Destiny and WoW, and despite both games having more elements to it aside from Raiding, they still thrive as they focus more into their raiding scene and PvE scene more than other content.

A game can still revolve around raiding as its core game concept, just like how a game can also revolve around PvP as its core game concept.
Just because it's not viable in an only single player game doesn't mean it's a bad game concept.

I think you are for the most part correct. Without the socializing and cooperative play, the gameplay just isn't that fun when it has to standalone. Imagine if they removed all the rewards for raiding in WoW, would that many people still do it because they consider it fun?

I know you weren't pointing this question to me, but in my opinion, yeah many people will still do it. They'd probably only do it once, or probably do it for parses, but yeah people will still do it despite a lot of people complaining about it giving no gear or rewards. And even then, the few people who really enjoy it will find a way to make their content repeatable (My examples would be from an FFXIV perspective so bear with me.), either through speedrunning, or parse logging or just plain meme runs (All Tanks Ultimate or Solo Heal Ultimate) even with no reward.

Now does this mean that content shouldn't be made repeatable? No it should. Just like how SE attaches incentives to Leveling Roulette even though there are people who enjoy running dungeons in FFXIV, they should attach incentives to content to make it naturally repeatable.

Now, do you think that many people will still do these because they consider this fun, with no rewards, no incentives, no xp?

You forgot a few:

• The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
• Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
• It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
• Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
• Pvp
• Hunt marks
• Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable