The 3-Strikes Policy - Is it really a good thing?

[HyperiusUltima]

I think that certain infractions should never fall off your record (harassment, hatespeech, cheating) but things like swearing or other understandably "oops" able things should. Maybe you forgot what chat you were in, maybe you were having a bad day, maybe you even had a technical difficulty that caused you to "AFK" in every dungeon you did that day and people reported you for it.

Infractions of certain types are unforgivable however. People who do these are likely to do them again and any incentive we can give NOT to do it again should be used. Hatespeech should never be used, no matter how "mad" you are. Harassing someone on purpose through game mechanics or systems should be highly stigmatized. Using cheat programs or methods (though i believe this is a one strike and you're out right now) if counted as a strike should always be on your record, otherwise this is a license to wait out the expiry and then cheating again.

While I do agree that a majority of what you said should be considered permanent, I think that minor offenses would need to be categorized in a manner that would help; and depending on the context of the logs it could escalate to a permanent action. Generally these 'minor' offenses should only stack up twice before become a full offense. And of course, repeat offenders don't get a chance. With how things are, CM post aside in that particular thread, it'd be a good thing for them to consider in terms of leniency - because there is none right now.

[Krotoan]

While I do agree that a majority of what you said should be considered permanent, I think that minor offenses would need to be categorized in a manner that would help; and depending on the context of the logs it could escalate to a permanent action. Generally these 'minor' offenses should only stack up twice before become a full offense. And of course, repeat offenders don't get a chance. With how things are, CM post aside in that particular thread, it'd be a good thing for them to consider in terms of leniency - because there is none right now.

That's also a good suggestion. Having frequent "minor" infractions add-up to an actual strike instead of just counting them outright would be a good addition.

While I've never been warned or jailed, I do understand that humans are humans and we cannot always be completely TOS compliant especially when the terms are so vague. I hear a lot of people complain about how when they do get strikes they have no idea why and while I understand the reason for not being able to reference the exact infractions, when you have such nebulous guidelines to work from, you should get a few chances to refine your behavior as well as forgiveness if you manage to comply for an extended amount of time.

I get the idea and I agree but I do feel if we do a system to remove strikes it should be for everything.

People grow but there are infractions out there that have no excuse. They are blatant and easily distinguishable from "passionate" or "accidental" infractions. Hatespeech, Targeted sexual harassment, hacking/cheating/exploiting.

[Awha]

That's also a good suggestion. Having frequent "minor" infractions add-up to an actual strike instead of just counting them outright would be a good addition.

While I've never been warned or jailed, I do understand that humans are humans and we cannot always be completely TOS compliant especially when the terms are so vague. I hear a lot of people complain about how when they do get strikes they have no idea why and while I understand the reason for not being able to reference the exact infractions, when you have such nebulous guidelines to work from, you should get a few chances to refine your behavior as well as forgiveness if you manage to comply for an extended amount of time.



People grow but there are infractions out there that have no excuse. They are blatant and easily distinguishable from "passionate" or "accidental" infractions. Hatespeech, Targeted sexual harassment, hacking/cheating/exploiting.

People can say or do things they often regret. Tolerance of forgiveness should cover everything. I personally operate on a simple principle every action is forgivable or no action is. Seems silly how people pick and choose what is a tolerant mistake over and unforgivable one.

[Krotoan]

People can say or do things they often regret. Tolerance of forgiveness should cover everything. I personally operate on a simple principle every action is forgivable or no action is. Seems silly how people pick and choose what is a tolerant mistake over and unforgivable one.

.. So murder is just as forgivable as jaywalking?

[Awha]

.. So murder is just as forgivable as jaywalking?

Yeah, a person should face punishment but to say that someone who has committed murder is not possible seems. If someone does change I do not think actions of the past after they did their punishment should follow a person. Just like in IRL once a person serves their time I do not think they should be forced to state they were ever locked up, or their sentences should be viewable through a background check. The government can have a record but as everyday people I do not think we should really know. They did their time being as they are saw fit to be free they should be viewed as everyone else not as a person with a negative label for the rest of their life.

As I mentioned I live by a simple view everything can be forgiven and made amends for. Life is too short to hold grudges and carry anger around. I also say this as someone who has been victim of some horrendous acts with lengthy legal battles as a child but that is just me. I get for many it is hard to let go. Do not get me wrong I still remember the horrible things done to me, but outside that it is water under the bridge.

In short I do not base my own view of forgiveness around the type of action or damage dealt so to speak.

[Krotoan]

Yeah, a person should face punishment but to say that someone who has committed murder is not possible seems. If someone does change I do not think actions of the past after they did their punishment should follow a person. Just like in IRL once a person serves their time I do not think they should be forced to state they were ever locked up, or their sentences should be viewable through a background check. The government can have a record but as everyday people I do not think we should really know. They did their time being as they are saw fit to be free they should be viewed as everyone else not as a person with a negative label for the rest of their life.

As I mentioned I live by a simple view everything can be forgiven and made amends for. Life is too short to hold grudges and carry anger around. I also say this as someone who has been victim of some horrendous acts with lengthy legal battles as a child but that is just me. I get for many it is hard to let go. Do not get me wrong I still remember the horrible things done to me, but outside that it is water under the bridge.

In short I do not base my own view of forgiveness around the type of action or damage dealt so to speak.

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

[Awha]

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

I know the severity of a punishment is relative to the infraction, and I agree with that and never stated otherwise. Do not think I ever said that something should go without punishment. Though if implied as much I am sorry and was not my intent. My stance is once the punishment is done it should not follow a person. How is that not holding them accountable? They got in trouble had an action taken against their account. Once the punishment is served their past mistakes should not follow them.

End of the day my first comment in this thread was more so how people pick and choose what actions are considered tolerable mistakes and which are not is something I do not agree with. I we should be able to hold the same standard across the board. If we are agree people make mistakes and can change for one thing same should be viewed for others. By no means does that mean I think people should not be held accountable for what they say or do or get a get out of jail free card for their first infraction. I on the contrary I feel a first infraction should not be a warning but a temp suspension, though once the suspension is over it should not stay on their account forever.

Though yeah if someone does commit a murder and they serve their time and are released I do not think that should be public knowledge or follow them. Cause the reality is as people we stigmatize or marginalize people for past actions. They did their time and now want to try and do better, but sadly given how people view it is hard to move forward when you are constantly reminded about your past. I do not feel that is how we should view learning from ones mistake.

[Saefinn]

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

However, it's not law we're dealing with. Heck we could draw an alternative comparison and look at employment. Most places will clear any disciplinary actions taken against an employee after 6 months. It's really more a case of peace of mind, because a minor infraction could be all that does it to hang you over from 2 strikes over to 3 and you are indefinitely on that "what if I make a mistake once more?" over your head. Because technically speaking a simple "oh f***" breaks their profanity clause, somebody reports you and the GM decides to put a strike and that's it. You've learned from all your mistakes 7 years ago and it comes back to bite you.

When looking at it from a legal point of view, yeah, "can't do the time? Don't do the crime" fits. But I can't see argument for such an attitude existing in a video game service or for a community. It's basically going "our customer learned their lesson, years later they make one mistake, yes, lets force them to stop doing business with us even though their record has been great for years".

Having the strike on there temporarily is good to help curb misbehavior, if after a year they've not screwed up then it can be assumed they are making t he effort to stay within the game's rules.

If the rule breaking is more serious, then I can understand if it sticks. But if it's minor, it does seem harsh. If it's lots of minor ones in a short space of time, then yeah, that's indicative of somebody causing trouble. If it's minor ones stretched across a long period of time, this is people more likely making errors or mistakes

[Kuya420]

That's also a good suggestion. Having frequent "minor" infractions add-up to an actual strike instead of just counting them outright would be a good addition.

While I've never been warned or jailed, I do understand that humans are humans and we cannot always be completely TOS compliant especially when the terms are so vague. I hear a lot of people complain about how when they do get strikes they have no idea why and while I understand the reason for not being able to reference the exact infractions, when you have such nebulous guidelines to work from, you should get a few chances to refine your behavior as well as forgiveness if you manage to comply for an extended amount of time.



People grow but there are infractions out there that have no excuse. They are blatant and easily distinguishable from "passionate" or "accidental" infractions. Hatespeech, Targeted sexual harassment, hacking/cheating/exploiting.

i agree with the targeted harassment (doesnt have to be sexual), hacking/cheaitng/exploiting, for the rest, who decides what is hatespeech? who dictates what can and cant be said? thats the only issue i have, the game itself has suggestive dialogue, its not a kids game, dont get me wrong that doesnt mean people should have a free license tp be as offensive as they want to be, but also theres no way to report in game currently, other than RMT, as i just came on to figure out how to report someone who sent me a scam msg with a url link thats designed to steal peoples accounts, i feel stuff like that should take a slightly higher priority, since it does make it so people cant play the game until they go through customer support, if its even active atm, meanwhile if someone is being offensive, you can just block them (granted shouldnt have to, but not everyones gonna be nice, gotta learn to deal with the people that arent so pleasant to deal with

also i was hearing that people were getting banned for RP Party finder stuff, like too many people cluttering up the PF with RP groups, i dont know how it is on other servers, but ive only seen them on non-selected groups and its usually at the bottom of the list anyway, so i really dont get what the big deal is

[Krotoan]

Except for the fact I was only painfully lucky that he re-looked at it, as I technically was asking for information on what occurred which is a no go.

I also know it would be a strike, and I know it would be a 3 day (As I got a 3 day for saying F word after this, oops to me, but imagine what it could have been if instead of 1 F it was 30 C's.)

I also can only assume that this was my report being taken in reverse, which isn't even a confirmation, because of the line "Regarding another case" Which, if I wanna sit and think on that, would mean a ticket with 0 relation to me marked me as the culprit. Imagine if I didn't question it, as 99% of the time it's just a waste to ask them to re-look at it?

That could have been a permanent mark on my account. I already gotta deal with having 2 (the first was like 5 1/2 years ago, for emoting too many times, where I also apologized and stopped but nobody cares about that </3) so having another where I couldn't have done anything wrong permanently sitting on me is not a very welcoming adventure.

Lucky? Or exactly what the review process is for? They don't just take reports and boom, action. They stick you in the Gaol till you actually get to talk to a GM. A person. An actual living breathing person reviews your infraction and makes sure you understand what's happening. And what happened? You showed confusion and then they reviewed and hey.. this wasn't you.
You were never in danger of being marked for something you didn't do because the process worked in your favor as it should when you're innocent.

I'm not gonna say I love the system, or even that it's close to what it should be. But It's miles ahead of a lot of other games where bing-bang you get enough reports and you're auto silenced/banned and you have to try your dangdest to get customer service or whomever to review your case after the fact. Errors happen in the world especially when you involve humans, but in this case it's nice that they do because humans can review these cases and react to the supposed rule breakers questions and replies.

It's not really about innocence, it's about the fact that if the strictest interpretation employed by GMs was used as the standard uniformly, literally 100% of the community would be guilty.

So it becomes a question of having your report get handled by the right GM on the right day, which means any and all rules are arbitrary since there's no reason to believe they will or won't apply to you for a given case. How much information you even get isn't even consistent.

Is it? Or did they actually question what was happening when a possibly new or uninformed GM started handing out warnings left and right and panicked the forums? When one (or more, there are 100+ pages of that thread and no, I'm not reading them all) of their team applied the rules non-standardly they retracted those actions. For years and years people understood the rules and as long as they followed what was said were fine.

I know "bootlicker" or some such is going to be thrown around.. but seeing how SE actually reacted to a GM giving non-standard warnings and actions out, was pretty reassuring that they're not only trying to keep standards, but willing to act when one of their own misinterprets or acts out of line.

i agree with the targeted harassment (doesnt have to be sexual), hacking/cheaitng/exploiting, for the rest, who decides what is hatespeech? who dictates what can and cant be said? thats the only issue i have, the game itself has suggestive dialogue, its not a kids game, dont get me wrong that doesnt mean people should have a free license tp be as offensive as they want to be, but also theres no way to report in game currently, other than RMT, as i just came on to figure out how to report someone who sent me a scam msg with a url link thats designed to steal peoples accounts, i feel stuff like that should take a slightly higher priority, since it does make it so people cant play the game until they go through customer support, if its even active atm, meanwhile if someone is being offensive, you can just block them (granted shouldnt have to, but not everyones gonna be nice, gotta learn to deal with the people that arent so pleasant to deal with

also i was hearing that people were getting banned for RP Party finder stuff, like too many people cluttering up the PF with RP groups, i dont know how it is on other servers, but ive only seen them on non-selected groups and its usually at the bottom of the list anyway, so i really dont get what the big deal is

Sexual being pretty undisputably definable .. and hatespeech is pretty easy to define as targeting a particular demographic with hateful language. Calling someone a girl isn't , but calling someone say.. " a weak.. *insert derogatory word for female*" is most certainly hatespeech.

There is reporting in game, it's in the support section. There's no one button click, but as long as you can remember or track their name and server, you can report someone. In the menus under system: Support desk - Contact us- then pick a category. Honestly either type will get sent to the team and be looked at. Especially if someone is spamming bait URLS. I have rarely gone more than 10 minutes without a GM contacting me about any submitted tickets. Last one I sent was a month ago, so it's not like they're AWOL during the pandemic.


People were being warned for RP party finder stuff, possibly actioned (didn't see any, but again.. LOTS of pages), the forum had a thread that shot up in replies, the GM's responded and said that the warnings were in error and the responsible parties had been advised.
direct quote"

Thank you for your patience while we reviewed the situation. In short, there was an internal miscommunication which led to account actions being issued incorrectly. We sincerely apologize for the concern that this has caused the community. There has not been any change to our existing policy, and we want to assure players that our focus is on taking action against inappropriate advertisements/listings.

The thread is here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...31#post5512931
and an interesting read.. but the first few pages and then the GM replies are really the only useful info, the rest is kinda.. bickery.