Fandaniel and the Depths of Ascian Tempering

[Mieck]

Why would Emet Selch lie about this? He outright states that they are tempered. We dont have a full knowledge of the echo (and honestly it can be what the devs want it to be including being able to see the future...) but wasnt it someone like Zenos who stated that its just a battle of who has more willpower?

Also do we know that the echo as we have it is something from the Ancient ones? Maybe it was even an unique talent even there.

Anyways Zodiark was summoned at a time where the magic of the Ancient ones were going fully out of control. What if part of his power was to temper the minds of the people, so that they wont lose that power again? Or maybe it was a unknown consequence of the deep wish that everything would be under control.

I was having thoughts along this line - although Emet did say that if he uttered a lie we would find it indistinguishable from the truth. If, as Elidibus goes on to explain in patch 5.2, the Echo is a fragment of the power of the power (a symphony, he referrs to it as) all Ancients possessed, how then were Ancients tempered? Unless we're into a situation with a scale and Zodiark was so overwhelmingly powerful that even the "symphony" was not enough? Zenos's overcoming of Shinryu rather suggests that relative power is a factor.

[Shyron]

I think it might be important to consider what tempering actually does. In case of Ga Bu, a child with a sundered soul, Titan put him into a sort of trance and dominated his thoughts. Titan is a much messier sort of primal than Zodiark or Hydaelyn, and so their tempering might not do the same thing. Z and H were created with much more intention than modern primals are, and those primals differ with each summoning.

The thirteen members of the Convocation decided together that they wanted to summon Zodiark. They designed him from scratch for their specific purpose. They thought it was a good idea. So they summon him, and he tempers them into... still thinking it's a good idea. Can a primal temper you into doing something you already want to do? Especially when you programmed them to want that thing as well? Does that really count? Maybe it means you can't change your mind later on, but they still wanted this in the first place. Sacrificing half their population was still something they decided on. Waiting to do anything about the end of the world until it was just their own city remaining was still something they decided on.

As to the sundered vs unsundered, I think that if Fandaniel is genuine in his objective of having Zenos absorb or destroy Zodiark, it suggests that only the unsundered are actually tempered. The sundered aren't tempered, and could freely choose to pursue the Zodiark-centric plan for rejoinings and calamities... and they do. Because using Zodiark and focusing on the well-being of their people alone was what they were doing in the first place. They may differ in how or why they're pursuing this goal. Remember that Nabriales was interested in overthrowing Lahabrea and becoming top Ascian, and for Mitron, using Eden to restore Loghrif took priority over using it to cause another flood of light to facilitate rejoining the first. All three, however, still intend to continue with their plan to rejoin worlds and restore Zodiark and bring back the sacrificed people of Amaurot.

Ultimately, I don't think the Ascians being tempered by Zodiark actually does very much. It means they're stuck with this plan no matter what new information they discover down the road, but it's still their plan and there's not much evidence to suggest they're actually trying to change their mind. Except for Fandaniel.

[DPZ2]

Nice to read all of this, including much that I'll never actually see in-game.

My current thought is that Fandaniel is an extreme sociopath, and that he just really, really wants to put an end to anything and everything, including himself, in one bright flash of glorious death and destruction. He announced his intentions ahead of time in order to inflict the most pain and suffering he can while doing so.

And, maybe, just maybe, in the hopes that the Warrior of Light can stop him.

[Mieck]

And now that you mention it, I wonder if there's anyone who is simultaneously in the "The sundered aren't tempered." and "Hydaelyn tempers you." buckets... If Zenos is after Zodiark, pretty sure my dude still has the Echo, right?

There's something else he (still?) has. Hein complained how unfair it was for a Garlean to be using magic during their duel in 4.5, and that could just be read as "well, you're actually squaring off against Elidibus, sunbeam," but upon taking ownership of his body again, Zenos used a few magic or magic-like abilities during the brief skirmish with Gaius and Estinien in 5.1. He even warps away using the Ascian black/purple disapparation effect. So, is that something residual as a result of Ascian possession? Or something rather more to do with whatever Emet-Selch may or may not have had to do with Zenos in the past (as hinted at by Fandaniel)? Or is it a result of his artifically unlocked Echo?


Edit: this is going dreadfully off topic.

[Anonymoose]

He even warps away using the Ascian black/purple disapparation effect. So, is that something residual as a result of Ascian possession? Or something rather more to do with whatever Emet-Selch may or may not have had to do with Zenos in the past (as hinted at by Fandaniel)? Or is it a result of his artifically unlocked Echo?

Which is an interesting observation in and of itself. I flat-out took it for an (unproven) given that it was safe to assume that because Zenos lacked magicks in the short story but had them at Rhalgr's Reach that Aulus put him through the machine twice. The machine was meant to give Garleans magicks, but then Zenos and Aulus found Gaius's notes and tried for the Echo, as well. To this day, I suspect that's why he was fulfilling obligations in Doma to the bare minimum before he got word Shinryu was found, took off like a bat out of hell, and prioritized the kidnapping of Krile. So part of me is like, "Elidibus left him all the breadcrumbs he needs." but how to suss out where the boundaries are...

Edit: this is going dreadfully off topic.

Eh, there's so much diversity of what was "obviously being implied" beliefs about Ascians, tempering, and the Echo that I think it's all fair game if it systemically impacts the target topic in some way. It's all in the same orbit, here, imho, lol.

[Kesey]

I was having thoughts along this line - although Emet did say that if he uttered a lie we would find it indistinguishable from the truth. If, as Elidibus goes on to explain in patch 5.2, the Echo is a fragment of the power of the power (a symphony, he referrs to it as) all Ancients possessed, how then were Ancients tempered? Unless we're into a situation with a scale and Zodiark was so overwhelmingly powerful that even the "symphony" was not enough? Zenos's overcoming of Shinryu rather suggests that relative power is a factor.

But it seems that anyone who awakens to the echo is brought under Hydaelyn's heel, via a prerecorded message. Who is to say the blessing the Light /Darkness isn't a more perfected form of tempering, only available to elder primals? It feels obvious that Zodiark and Hydaelyn's ability to temper would be more powerful.

And I have to agree with Alleo about Emet. There is not reason to believe that he was telling us a lie about the tempering. The thing he was lying about was the fact that he wanted to observe us deal with the Lightwarden problem while scheming a win/win situation behind our backs. On one hand if the light from the light-wardens turn the WOL into another light-warden, then the WOL is out of the picture and a rejoining can take place. On the other, if the WOL agrees to go to Amaurot ruins and sees his old life and accepts that they were Azem and rejoins the convocation to stop the light-warden problem then Emet gains another powerful ally. This is the win/win, the opportunity that has presented itself on The First, the lie/scheme/plot from the get go. Knowing the true history of the Ancients is critical to this scheme, so admitting the convocation was tempered works in his favor.

[Alleo]

I was having thoughts along this line - although Emet did say that if he uttered a lie we would find it indistinguishable from the truth. If, as Elidibus goes on to explain in patch 5.2, the Echo is a fragment of the power of the power (a symphony, he referrs to it as) all Ancients possessed, how then were Ancients tempered? Unless we're into a situation with a scale and Zodiark was so overwhelmingly powerful that even the "symphony" was not enough? Zenos's overcoming of Shinryu rather suggests that relative power is a factor.

Well since that was a being that was powerful enough to stop the calamity and to change the laws of the planet, I could see that he simply was above their version of the echo. Or it was part of his given power so that the sound cant reach anyone anymore.

But it seems that anyone who awakens to the echo is brought under Hydaelyn's heel, via a prerecorded message. Who is to say the blessing the Light /Darkness isn't a more perfected form of tempering, only available to elder primals? It feels obvious that Zodiark and Hydaelyn's ability to temper would be more powerful.

We will find out if we are tempered but seeing how there were WoL in the past that went against Hydealyn I really doubt that she tempers anyone. Ardbert and his group are another example. He ouright attacked the Word of the Mother and they sided with Elidibus for a short time. Maybe she would have the ability too or would be forced to do so if she was in the normal realm or maybe she was constructed without it or with it being changed to "free will".

[LineageRazor]

But it seems that anyone who awakens to the echo is brought under Hydaelyn's heel, via a prerecorded message. Who is to say the blessing the Light /Darkness isn't a more perfected form of tempering, only available to elder primals? It feels obvious that Zodiark and Hydaelyn's ability to temper would be more powerful.

The prospect of whether we (and other Warriors of Light) are Tempered by Hydaelyn is a topic that has been brought up many times in the past on these forums. Suffice it to say, if it IS a form of Tempering, then it's not a very good one, as individuals with the Blessing of Light have acted in direct defiance of Hydaelyn on a number of occasions. Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness are examples. They worked directly with Elidibus in an attempt to trigger a Rejoining, which is about as far from the Will of Hydaelyn as you can get. Saint Ajora was another example, who summoned Ultima to Hydaelyn.

If you're going to go further and broadly say that simply having the ECHO is enough to become Tempered to Hydaelyn's cause, it gets even more absurd, as you then have to account for Ysayle and the Sahagin Priest, both of whom were responsible for summoning Primals. If all of these folks are Tempered, then it would seem that Hydaelyn has issued only one command: "Do whatever the heck you want, lol."

Speaking from a meta standpoint, I find it highly unlikely that the writers plan to drop a "Surprise! You were a slave all along and didn't know it!" bomb on the playerbase. The game plays hard into the notion that the player character is a superstar, the best of the best, and second to none, with the intent of appealing to players who want to dream of being such a paragon. To make us a chump after all that would alienate those people, and for what? To play a card that Bioshock played first?

[Kesey]

The prospect of whether we (and other Warriors of Light) are Tempered by Hydaelyn is a topic that has been brought up many times in the past on these forums. Suffice it to say, if it IS a form of Tempering, then it's not a very good one, as individuals with the Blessing of Light have acted in direct defiance of Hydaelyn on a number of occasions. Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness are examples. They worked directly with Elidibus in an attempt to trigger a Rejoining, which is about as far from the Will of Hydaelyn as you can get. Saint Ajora was another example, who summoned Ultima to Hydaelyn.

If you're going to go further and broadly say that simply having the ECHO is enough to become Tempered to Hydaelyn's cause, it gets even more absurd, as you then have to account for Ysayle and the Sahagin Priest, both of whom were responsible for summoning Primals. If all of these folks are Tempered, then it would seem that Hydaelyn has issued only one command: "Do whatever the heck you want, lol."

Speaking from a meta standpoint, I find it highly unlikely that the writers plan to drop a "Surprise! You were a slave all along and didn't know it!" bomb on the playerbase. The game plays hard into the notion that the player character is a superstar, the best of the best, and second to none, with the intent of appealing to players who want to dream of being such a paragon. To make us a chump after all that would alienate those people, and for what? To play a card that Bioshock played first?

But Ysayle claims to have heard Hydaelyn when she finds out she has the echo too. And we can't rule out elder primal tempering either because the story has yet to present us the opportunity to betray Hydaelyn. But a character who did get to betray Hydaelyn, Ardbert, flat out attacked her and she was able to control the situation. So free will still doesn't mean we are tempered, as elder primal tempering may function differently.

Also predestination will have you believe that free will is an illusion, because your path, your decisions, consequences are set in stone and can't be changed even if you feel you have the ability to change them. Who is to say that elder primal tempering is predestination? By Hydaelyn's blessing we are tempered to a path of destiny we can't walk away from even if we, in the depth of souls, wanted too or even tried too.

[YianKutku]

By Hydaelyn's blessing we are tempered to a path of destiny we can't walk away from even if we, in the depth of souls, wanted too or even tried too.

Technically the path of destiny was imposed on us not by Hydaelyn, but by the game devs. Because I recall discussions about other games (the most discussed I've seen being Spec Ops The Line), where the "predestination" could easily be derailed by, well, not playing the game, and assuming your character just walks away.

However, in this case that means quitting FFXIV, and so if we (as players) want to see what happens next for this aspect of our chosen entertainment, we (as characters) have to walk the predestined path. I'm not sure this can be blamed on Hydaelyn as such, and trying to tie it into her is, as mentioned, basically something already done before in other games like Bioshock.