Fandaniel and the Depths of Ascian Tempering

[Veloran]

I'm still of the mindset that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are just opposite sides of the Will of the Planet,

I've recently gotten to thinking that Hydaelyn and Zodiark really are the same being. The Endwalker art implies it with both of them being connected, that's what Hydaelyn's story partly was (even if large parts of it are still clearly lies), and most importantly there's Elidibus' recount of what he did just before the Sundering - There was a major irreconcilable conflict between the College and Convocation, and he ejected himself from Zodiark to try and resolve it as Emissary. I think there's a good chance the College planned for this and instigated things so that he would leave Zodiark, and Venat could mantle him.

Of course that doesn't really explain the fact that they fought and Zodiark was literally excised from the world...

This is already rapid-fire in every direction! Ahhh! I'm not sure if I'm going to get juggle the replies-to-the-replies in this post. (Though, as always, I'm just trying to parry points into other points to cover all our bases more than argue for the "right" way to interpret something that hasn't even happened, yet.)

So is one theory that the writers are discarding all of this off as indentured lip-service?

All of that is really old lore, from before the Ascian's backgrounds were fleshed out. I think it's easy enough to just say that some of them really believed in the cause and Zodiark, and some were just paying lip service.

The [Will of the Star] has far greater psychic influence than even the Ancients were capable of resisting.

So they had the unlocked potential of the Echo, their Ancient souls, and Zodiark still drastically out-willed them? Not like it's impossible considering they were trying to create a true god, but in that case how is it he didn't temper all of the Ancients? And there's still the issue of Elidibus here.

How does anything Emet-Selch did when he was alive knowingly go against Zodiark? How would creating a stone in secret for his best friend, hoping they'd eventually find themselves on the same side or be reunited in the world restored, go against Zodiark?

He didn't kill WoL when he easily could have, left the stone for WoL and set up for him to get it in the event of his defeat, and he let himself slip into the Lifestream despite clearly being able to resist it's pull. For all intents and purposes Emet threw the game on the First.

What if the memory is restored, and thus the self, but the self has never and could never be stronger than Zodiark, which is how they were tempered in the first place?

I just don't see it. Again, we've always been led to believe that tempering is an aetherial phenomenon. I understand that the soul obviously harbors memories, but as Jeanne says all of this can more easily be explained by the recovery of one's memories altering their persona rather than it being an issue of reincarnations subsuming themselves to tempering because they believe it, or something.

Other than the fact that Emet says it, there isn't a strong reason to think any of the Ascians were tempered, currently. Even Elidibus's devotion to his duty can be explained better by his promise and willfully forgotten memories - Which itself kind of messes with the whole tempered memories thing?

Why a loyal servant of Zodiark who worked for His resurrection and dominance re-create the very conditions that arose to Him being summoned the first time? Why would a loyal servant of Zodiark who worked for His resurrection and dominance re-create the very conditions that gave Him purpose and strength, and made all yearn for the salvation of the world - his very raison d'etre? Why wouldn't he?

I can't rule out that he's doing it for Zodiark. In fact I'd go as far as to say that his plan is specifically to get WoL to mantle Zodiark and kill Zenos while he's mantling Hydaelyn. But even then, I don't think that shows him to be tempered, because ultimately I don't see how this is supposed to end up with Zodiark at the top of the proverbial totem pole.

The uplifted sundered are not actually given their real memories back.

I've said it before, but I very much believe the Unsundered's memories in the stones are merely to serve as the catalyst for the sundered awakening their own memories.

Where modern, lesser primals require crystals, Zodiark requires souls.

Aren't crystals effectively the crystalized essence of the Lifestream?
I was always under the impression that the reason Lahabrea pushed Primal summonings so much was because consuming so many crystals and draining the land of aether was killing Hydaelyn, and that's at least in the top three Ascian goals right next to "Zodiark" and "Rejoining".

[Vyrerus]

Aren't crystals effectively the crystalized essence of the Lifestream?

Not the Lifestream in particular. They're not materia from FFVII. As I recall, they're only ever mentioned as being condensed aether.

As far as wanting Primal summonings by the dozen, that changes the land's aetherial scape, and helps them usher in calamities.

[LineageRazor]

For the glory of Lord Zodiark.

It's a good point that Sundered Ascians are also shown as being Coocoo for Zodiark - but it's worth pointing out that people are quite able to become cult-minded without being literally mind-controlled into being so. Perhaps upon being reminded of their original selves by the memory crystals, they were so overwhelmed with awe by memories of Zodiark's amazing power and greatness that they voluntarily began to worship him - no tempering required!

So they are being given artificial "memories" that were made up by Emet-Selch, Elidibus, and Lahabrea.

As I see it, the memory crystals work a lot like the Starfall Vision, which stir feelings of loss even in folks who remember nothing of the End of Days. Those feelings are part of the soul. The crystals are not sufficient on their own to rebuild the original Ancient, but they are sufficient to jog the memories stored within the soul fragment - and THOSE are the true memories of the original. It's not so much that the Unsundered were creating a facsimile of their original comrade as they were reminding them of what they used to be like in order to stir the true memories. Remember the time...? You were such a joker... You were truly devoted... so on and so forth, everything the Unsundered knew of the person, much as a person would try to help an amnesiac remember who they are.

So they had the unlocked potential of the Echo, their Ancient souls, and Zodiark still drastically out-willed them? Not like it's impossible considering they were trying to create a true god, but in that case how is it he didn't temper all of the Ancients? And there's still the issue of Elidibus here.

I see a couple of possibilities here as to why Zodiark didn't Temper everyone. First, it's possible that the Convocation was Tempered as a direct result of Zodiark's Summoning. It was involuntary on Zodiark's part, and he saw no reason to Temper anyone else. There's some evidence of this with Ramuh - he is never shown to Temper anyone, is never stated to have Tempered anyone, and apparently has no desire to Temper anyone, and yet several Sylphs are Tempered. Even keeping in mind that the Tempered can Temper others WITHOUT the presence of the Primal (Leviathan's followers do it, and Ramuh's followers kidnap Sylph seed pods to do it, as well), there still had to have been some original Tempered Sylphs - and they were probably the ones present at Ramuh's summoning.

Another possibility is that Zodiark WAS working to Temper everyone, but powerful as he was he wasn't able to just snap his fingers and do so. He had to find them and Temper them, and we don't know what limits he might have had on his ability to do so. The Dissenters were one group that managed to evade his reach long enough to summon Hydaelyn. Tempering might have even been a design choice baked in from the start - Zodiark was GIVEN the ability to Temper in order to control Ancients and stop their uncontrolled Creation that was causing so much trouble at the time. Zodiark, though, needed to consciously apply this Tempering, and for whatever reasons did not always choose to Temper.

Still another possibility is that while Zodiark was able to overwhelm the wills of many or most Ancients, there were some few with will strong enough to resist even him. Zenos believed that his mastery over Shinryu was possible because his will was greater than Shinryu's. (Whether this was actually true, or whether it was due to his Resonance is a matter of debate.) It just happens that every single member of the Convocation did NOT have sufficiently strong will - and, while Emet-Selch clearly believes no one possibly could, it doesn't mean he was RIGHT.

[YianKutku]

It's a good point that Sundered Ascians are also shown as being Coocoo for Zodiark - but it's worth pointing out that people are quite able to become cult-minded without being literally mind-controlled into being so. Perhaps upon being reminded of their original selves by the memory crystals, they were so overwhelmed with awe by memories of Zodiark's amazing power and greatness that they voluntarily began to worship him - no tempering required!

The example I like to bring up is the Sahagin Priest, who had the Echo and thus could not have been tempered by Leviathan, but was just as (if not more) fanatical as his Tempered fellows. That is, until he got eaten by Leviathan, at which point he presumably stopped believing in anything.

There's also the heretics of Ishgard, who were so zealous and fanatical that the Ishgardians believe they had been tempered by Shiva, but it turned out Shiva never tempered anyone, and they were just fanatical because they really believed in their cause.