The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Payotz]

I won´t call it so hard subjectively seen. Of course i´ve written "for me", but the thing is, that FF14 doesn´t offer much of a deep gameplay and i agree that you can easily learn a lot of classes at the dummies. Rotations can be learned from anyone. Proccs are just buttons you press as fast as you can. The so called "skill" is more up to decision-making if things goes down under or to find the perfect strategy / spot to beat a boss. Unique gameplay has become really rare with all the class and boss changes. The current monk is a joke yes, but permanent positionals and the decision about SSS/FS/chakra/TN and RoE are atleast something you can work with.

I mean you can't really add "for me" and then present it as fact. That's just shielding an opinion and presenting it as fact.

I agree with all you've said about BLM, but honestly, the "decision making" for True North and SSS and RoE isn't really decision making at all. It's pretty much a cooldown you press at a specific time in the fight timeline to gain uptime. That's all it is. If Chakra wasn't 100% every crit then I'd say you'd have some decision making to do due to it being unpredictable, but honestly all of these decision making skills you're talking about are the same as popping Surecast in a fight, or popping Addle during Relativity. It's all just static buttons you press regardless.

Procs have a lot more thinking involved due to its unpredictable nature. You don't press the button as fast as you can, you actually think about a lot of things.

Can I fit Iron Jaws in if I immediately use up the RA Proc?

Should I save my WM stacks to bait for a 3rd proc or should I blast it and be safe?

Hmmm, do I do my melee GCD proc first or do I use up Espiritus?

How much do I need to delay Technical Finish so I can use this GCD proc, and if I do, do I lose a use of it in the fight?

Do I also delay Flourish to use this feather? But if I do, I'll lose a GCD proc hard and I'll delay my dances more.

These are pretty much just a few scenarios off the top of my head that can come up during raid. It's just the nature of a proc-based/priority based job, and honestly I see that as decision making, rather than weaving in RoE during a raid wide.

[ssunny2008]

I mean you can't really add "for me" and then present it as fact. That's just shielding an opinion and presenting it as fact.

That´s why i´ve written "hard". Of course there is some taste of an own opinion, but i think we can agree, that a lot of stuff goes into the wrong direction objectively seen.

snip

It´s not about such monk skills only, it´s the combination with the lack of range, permanent positionals and a handful of skills which help to hold / increase your dps. And going into a short downtime with SSS, FS or that 0,5s greed with unforbidden chakra makes a difference.

You´re getting used to your examples very quickly too. On the other hand, the game might hate you. Maybe you just get only 2/3 proccs, sometimes you get like 10 bloodletter resets, the next song like 1. The game could love you aswell and as longer the fight goes on, it might be 50/50 in the end. But it still isn´t unique or deep in some way.
Buffs are another topic. The standard is to unleash them immediately unless you know about downtime in the next 5s or so. To "plan" those buffs is more kind of a decent strategy with a decent group, but never needed in any fight. E11s is a good example and really depends on the other players / classes for me. Either i´ll delay all my cooldowns till prismatic is over to come together with DRG or AST raidbuffs or i don´t. If i do, i´m going to miss one burstwindow in the end before the enrage shows up. But this doesn´t matter if we kill the boss 1 minute earlier. But then you´ve that low DPS group and any delay would be counter-productive.
But here again, it might be the players decision, you could even call it "a more skilled player" to think about such stuff. But the game doesn´t force it by itself and it´s not something the class design is offering to you. It´s raid optimization.

To be full melee with permanent positionals or being that static BLM together with a handful of skills to play around certain boss mechanics is what makes such classes way more unique than others in kind of the gameplay design. Even RDM`s design is unique with melee and range, but it´s still too static. It would be another thing if you couldn´t use your range spells as long as you´re in melee range, but so...

Imo phys. range subclasses has nothing unique, just gimmicks. The core design is to be that free mobility class without any casting times and that´s it.
What would you say if bard gets those distance based multipliers on some skills?
Or DNC who would have partner based skill like "play close to him" or "on the opposite at the boss, so a bond between you and your partner will damage him"?
Even MCH could work with a bond on his robot. Or let him build a fat transformer within the fight and the evolution (Optimus, Megatron, Omega?!) depends on the order you summon other turrets or robots.

It´s not much brain involved in such ideas imo, but it´s a deeper class based design than being those procc related classes with a lots of freedom and single gimmicks. The songs / dance designs are pretty cool, fit the classes und could be so unique too. But in the end it´s just a shallow implementation to spread some groupbuffs.

[Payotz]

It´s not about such monk skills only, it´s the combination with the lack of range, permanent positionals and a handful of skills which help to hold / increase your dps. And going into a short downtime with SSS, FS or that 0,5s greed with unforbidden chakra makes a difference.

I mean we're talking about decision making. The combination of all of these makes a job but it doesn't imbue it with meaningful decision making. It's still static as you literally just press the same buttons everytime, regardless of what happens in the fight.

You´re getting used to your examples very quickly too. On the other hand, the game might hate you. Maybe you just get only 2/3 proccs, sometimes you get like 10 bloodletter resets, the next song like 1. The game could love you aswell and as longer the fight goes on, it might be 50/50 in the end. But it still isn´t unique or deep in some way.

I honestly disagree. The very fact that there's a "maybe you get a proc" screams decision making to me. You go in with a plan of action, and you immediately have to think on the fly if the proc occurs. Having a wrench thrown into your planned rotation and not being able to rely on most of your kit to be active when you want to tells me that you have to think on the fly and act quickly when the proc occurs or does not occur. That's decision making. You're planning the finer details of your rotation in that specific moment of the fight, in that specific pull, NOT at the practice dummy. Whether or not it occurs again is out of your control, you just have to deal with it.

Buffs are another topic. The standard is to unleash them immediately unless you know about downtime in the next 5s or so. To "plan" those buffs is more kind of a decent strategy with a decent group, but never needed in any fight

I mean you can just do the bare minimum of the job and you can probably clear E9S eventually. You can go ahead and hit no positionals for MNK and still do minimum damage, you can just spam Armor crush and never go for a rear positional for a NIN and you'll still probably clear. Hell, you can probably have a WHM just put their dots up and just dps using Misery and the WHM will still clear. It doesn't mean that I can also go ahead and say that melees don't have positionals nor that the WHM has no Glare. A grey parse is still a clear.

Imo phys. range subclasses has nothing unique, just gimmicks. The core design is to be that free mobility class without any casting times and that´s it.

That's because they tore out ranged physical's identity. They used to be the DPS utility. That's their whole design, but they pretty much just threw that under the bus.
I would love nothing more than to have that identity back, and be expanded on top of it.

What would you say if bard gets those distance based multipliers on some skills?
Or DNC who would have partner based skill like "play close to him" or "on the opposite at the boss, so a bond between you and your partner will damage him"?
Even MCH could work with a bond on his robot. Or let him build a fat transformer within the fight and the evolution (Optimus, Megatron, Omega?!) depends on the order you summon other turrets or robots.

The thing about these mechs is that these all scream gimmicks to me, and they also have to pretty much overhaul the entire game for the sake of one role when they can just pretty much revert the role to the previous, much liked iteration.
The whole BRD distance based multipliers will clash against healer design, as most of the time you have to get close for heavy healing phases.

The whole MCH just worsens the Queen problem in its entirety. Queen right now is a clunky mess that bugs literally on the first tier of the expansion, and fucks over any add phase due to it being buggy. Adding SMN's and SCH's ghosting pet ai problems on top if it will just make the job even worse.

Honestly, the whole DNC thing is probably the most sane out of the suggestions, and I can definitely see it happening, but it just feels arbitrary. A physical ranged having their mobility restricted by its own kit feels terrible, and I would honestly prefer for raid mechanics themselves to restrict mobility, or outright abuse it.

They're all gimmicky in their own way, but I would honestly see it happening if it was in another game that's not FF14. With how bad the server ticks, the Pet AI and numerous other issues in this game are, I really can't see the mechanics work as intended 90% of the time in raids.

I would honestly prefer them to just give back what already worked and loved rather than do something new that will actually make the role pretty much unplayable.

[Rika007]

I would honestly prefer them to just give back what already worked and loved rather than do something new that will actually make the role pretty much unplayable.

Preach. I bet right now, even if rDPS contribution of ranged was still the lowest of all roles, but was only a few percentage points below the lower melee's and casters of DRG, NIN, and RDM, and Bard and Machinist were given back the support kits they lost from Stormblood? You would instantly see a massive reduction in complaints about Ranged DPS. Sure there will still be calls for cleaning up rotational problems (Bard's issues with over capping, Machinist and ping related problems), and of course there is always some complaints, but most players ranged players just want the job they fell in love with back.

[ssunny2008]

snip

It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

A physical ranged having their mobility restricted by its own kit feels terrible, and I would honestly prefer for raid mechanics themselves to restrict mobility, or outright abuse it.

As i´ve said, not much brain in the ideas and of course those are gimmicks in first case, but it´s something more you´ve to care about or which lies in players hands next to press a button before a bar overloads or a procc is gone into nowhere. Distance based damage or that bond doesn´t restrict the mobility, it makes actually use of them. You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

I would honestly prefer them to just give back what already worked and loved rather than do something new that will actually make the role pretty much unplayable.

Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......
A lot of ppl here seem to think that BLM is "perfectly rounded". I could open a barrel about what´s actually wrong with this class so. But i don´t, because other enjoy it as it is.

Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs. Something needs to be done and it should be a real requirement gimmick in my eyes. Nobody would even say any word again about a higher dps, if they get something to care about. And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

[Payotz]

It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design. Having the extra room to actually get better at the game is depth.
Raid design does have impact on how deep the gameplay is, but typically it's only one half of the equation.
You said it yourself, you react to procs rather than rely on a reliable OGCD or GCD, and that really is decision making at its very core.
It's not something you make at the striking dummy, it's something you make in that specific moment of the fight, in that specific pull.

You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

And that's really an arbritary restriction that I'm talking about. Needing 10-12m distance like a SC Siege Tank regardless of raid mechanics is restricting movement. Yes, it's not the "perfect idea", it's actually a completely horrible one, and I would prefer for raid mechanics to focus ranged physicals a lot more, or have ranged physicals do more mechanics and have more responsibility so they can abuse their mobility and range. This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements. It takes a lot more skill to do a rotation when you're getting AoEs and Twisters on top of you while having to kite an add akin to E5S.

Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......

And that's fine. That's completely fine. It just doesn't have to result in something being dumbed down or having their identity torn out of the jobs. It shouldn't have to result in raid design losing the one factor where physical ranged is actually benificial. The game thrives on criticism, it's up to the job design and raid design team to think about them and make changes according to their own judgement. If I still don't like the changes like many in this expansion (no TK Monk, MCH Rework, SCH overhaul etc...) then I make my voice heard again. We are free to argue about our opinions as much as we would like, and hopefully someone in the dev team is reading this and taking notes.

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs.

This is the big problem with the raid design more with a little bit of job design. Since ranged physicals don't handle more mechanics that abuse their mobility, they're left without a job. It's like what if Tanks can't position the bosses anymore, or the Healers literally don't heal anything and just keep pressing Glare, the Melees just stand on one general area the whole entire raid with a boss that has no positionals, and literally every raid has a special "BLM" spot so the BLM doesn't have to adjust movements using procs and instants. That's why I really just advocate for more mechanic responsibility for ranged physical instead.

And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

And I pretty much explained in my last post why giving ranged physicals what they had last time is better than a new gimmick that may not work due to how the backend and the whole game is designed.
It's unplayable in FF14, but it's real possible in another MMO.

[Rika007]

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

[Jirah]

That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

lets be honest SB and SHB BRD are pretty identical they lost MP/TP support and Foes and play somewhat the same, it is only the least played because DNC is brand new and MCH is essentially not recognized from SB MCH and is the safest non threatening job in the game with zero real concerns. Hard to compete with that

[ssunny2008]

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design.

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.
Imagine we would´ve some skilltrees to prepare for differen bosses aka burst for dps checks, better DoTs for downtimes or multiple adds/bosses.
I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design, when nearly all subclasses play similar to each other and the whole class design is strict to make balancing easier / to hold the classes easy to cater every kind of player. It´s still MNK, BLM and RDM for me, who has atleast some uniqueness in their kit. It doesn´t matter how easy you can get used to it if train stuff at a dummy. Is just the base design which is different.

This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements

I get you, but isn´t that the real issue imo? The players obviously want their mobility to stay, otherwise you would still have casting times or whatever. You want that the raid is designed around that, but how? If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing. Not that i would be against it. I would welcome new bosses without the strict SE pattern, multiple bosses at once where a DPS has to kite one as long as the others focus on the rest, etc... but that´s obviously not possible. The casualization is real and SE is either uninspired and lazy or just follows the golden rule "don´t touch a running system". I would call it´s the 2nd part, maybe even both since every addon is going to be the same.
It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics." More freedom for the player combined with some unique class requirements would make a difference. Put new boss designs on top of that and the gameplay would probably be much better and more than that "1 kill enjoyment". (e.g. Castrum before the lootpatch)

[Payotz]

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.

But it does exist. It is impactful and deep gameplay design. Whether or not the game requires it to clear content is a different topic entirely, the most important part is that there's potential for improvement.
Again, the game is not forcing you to do positionals as a MNK either, but that doesn't mean it has no positionals. The bosses could have no positionals like Bozja, but that would not change that the job has positionals.
It's up to the player if they're gonna do positionals or not, and to that I reiterate my point that static rotations is much less decision making and more muscle memory than proc based jobs.
They both have depth, just that proc-based jobs are forced to think on the fly rather than static rotations and thus have more decision making.

I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design

And this is why we can't really argue about this objectively. This is a subjective argument all in all.

You want that the raid is designed around that, but how?

I've been giving out examples for the past few posts now. Let me get a snippet from my original post:

2.Bring back Mechanics that will benefit from a Ranged Physical handling it. Notable examples would be BJ/CC Superjump, O11S Panto baits, or maybe even just positioning, like painting the Siren on O6S, Taking a kind of Prey/Flare mechanic from the party, or just plain applying a heavy on an add like in T7. This will add a LOT more gameplay to Physical Ranged, add more responsibility to the phys ranged player and will also justify their mobility and a spot at the party aside from just a 1% buff that you can't control.

If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing.

And that's bad why? Physical ranged has been doing it ever since Coil up until O11S.
That demands a lot more skill for the physical ranged player because of their no positioning requirements and mobility.
Add more utility on top of that, like mitigation tools, resource tools and the role would have their depth back!
It would add a lot more gameplay and would be more preferable to gimmicky range requirements and a 1% DPS buff.

It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics."

I've been refuting your argument for giving up mobility and you've been ignoring my points for a while now.
Removing mobility will not work for ranged physicals
You know what would work? Click Me