The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Jirah]

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interesting read, regardless of what others may think Ranged is easy mode and the support isnt anywhere near as layered to compensate if they even have any. Disregarding the damage as thats always taken out of proportion and is very much a non issue and eve if they increased it nothing would really change, adding a few buttons wouldnt really diversify the job enough. idk why the ranged got lobotomized to this extent but perhaps a few restrictions are in order like trajectory or just a more layered kit

[CKNovel]

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.
As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

Focus is still on rDPS but anyway...

You can't be further from the truth. It seems you still think ranged have a magic shield that resolves mechanics for them. If we take your example and use active time rather than DPS. Not real numbers, but that's better to explain.
The difference between a beginner and Veteran melee could be 75% to 95%, the difference between a beginner and veteran ranged could be 85% to 95%. On top of that, a beginner savage melee will produce the same result as a veteran ranged
That's what I mean to "Skill floor" and "Skill ceiling", the beginner ranged will have an advantage over other beginner caster/melee, but veteran melee knows how to close that gap. Now the position is reversed and there is no way for ranged to close that gap. All because of mobility, if you remove that mobility, you cut the Skill floor from the beginners but it will barely change anything for veterans.

But no ranged will reach 99% uptime while learning, where the hell did you got that idea?
Ranged play the same game as you, learn the same mechanics as you, try to adapt their rotation the same as you. Easy example is summoning the Automaton Queen right before downtime.
There can be slip-up, correcting position which could mean missing GCDs, missing mechanics. Everyone can make a mistakes, any role, any jobs.
Have you ever heard your RL saying "Stop DPS, focus on mechanics"? That goes for everyone.

There is no magic shield on ranged, nor bots that resolves mechanics for you. (Technically, they exist but that's another problem for SQEX to fix)

[ssunny2008]

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The focus tends more to the "own enjoyment and great feeling of self-improvement". (Getting rewarded for your own efforts.)

Yes everyone has to play the boss mechanics. But I´m not talking about those practice runs to see the boss mechanics. My example was about kills where poeple actually know what is coming. Of course noone will use a hard CD 5s right before downtime. That´s just dumb and not a hard adjustment either.

A lot of ppl obviously just want more DPS to be in line with the other classes. Or they want more support abilities, maybe a 2 second job gauge, whatever. But ask yourself, IS THIS ENOUGH? You might have a stronger class on paper, but the overall playstyle would be the same. It´s one thing to have bigger numbers or shields because a class got buffed or you wear better equipment. But it´s another if you´ve the same effect, because you played well around given restrictions, requirements or even boss RNG which are not just "press button X in moment Y".
What would be more enjoyable to you over time? The answer is easy for me. As long as phys. range has such a mobility without restrictions, it´ll be hard to find an original and well-designed deeper gameplay.
The perfect example is dancer. Dancing is new, original, fits the class, but it´s nothing but a gimmick and far away from having a deep impact on the gameplay or self-improvement. It would be another thing if you would´ve 3 different dances you´ve to remember by yourself and which grant something special in different situations like ninjutsu on NIN. The decision making from the player combined with a handful of skills to adjust to any circumstances last in "failed" or "well played with the reward of self-improvement and more dps". This is not really possible on phys. range classes thx to the core design and it´s actually the biggest issue to bring real enjoyment and the "happiness of getting better" over a long time.

[Rika007]

A lot of ppl obviously just want more DPS to be in line with the other classes. Or they want more support abilities, maybe a 2 second job gauge, whatever. But ask yourself, IS THIS ENOUGH?

I can 100% say, without any reservations, that if they literally just reset Bard back to what it had back in Stormblood, meaning I get back Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palisade, Nature's Minne on a faster cool down timer, and Trobadour that has the ability to change based off what song I'm playing, and Crit based procs, and then just scaled it's rDPS to be right below the contribution of a well played Ninja, Dragoon or Red Mage, that it would, in your words be 'ENOUGH' for me. I wouldn't even need the piercing debuff from Dragoon back, and flat out am ok losing the stuff Bard, 'gained' in Shadowbringers. And I'm sure plenty of Machinist mains would say the same about end of 3.X Heavensward Machinist. Don't pretend that you know what we would enjoy or be rewarded by. We already had the best versions of our jobs stripped away from us. We just want those back.

[ssunny2008]

I can 100% say, without any reservations, that if they literally just reset Bard back to what it had back in Stormblood, meaning I get back Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palisade, Nature's Minne on a faster cool down timer, and Trobadour that has the ability to change based off what song I'm playing, and Crit based procs, and then just scaled it's rDPS to be right below the contribution of a well played Ninja, Dragoon or Red Mage, that it would, in your words be 'ENOUGH' for me. I wouldn't even need the piercing debuff from Dragoon back, and flat out am ok losing the stuff Bard, 'gained' in Shadowbringers. And I'm sure plenty of Machinist mains would say the same about end of 3.X Heavensward Machinist. Don't pretend that you know what we would enjoy or be rewarded by. We already had the best versions of our jobs stripped away from us. We just want those back.

I don´t pretend and don´t know what you would enjoy. That´s why i´ve written "for me" in such statements and actually wanted to know, what do you really want?! But thx for your input, it´s actually more than just "more dps, more abilites". I can feel you a lot about such class changes, even if it´s more about tanks and melee dps in my case.

[Payotz]

So imagine you gonna be in line with the others in DPS. Imagine you get better or more raidbuffs / medigation. Maybe even a new feature with a skill to use in the end, but is that enough to "feel rewarded"?! For me it wouldn´t be enough.

It is. I do agree that MCH right now has literally NO gap between good MCHs and bad MCHs, but I disagree with BRD and DNC. There used to be a lot of nuance with BRD back in SB, and despite it being dumbed down by a lot in this expansion, the skill expression is still definitely there with proc/apex juggling. DNC's skill expression is definitely there with delaying your dances depending on procs, and making sure that your Dance still lines up by keeping track of GCDs you've delayed, not unlike how SAM adjusts their filler during downtime. If anything, your ideas about how braindead ranged physical is actually only applies to MCH. And if they're gonna reimplement gunmage, then that's fine with me.

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.

That's pretty much the nature of combat in this game, especially if you're in a static. Farm parties are the most boring shit ever. Advanced Relativity was only really hard during blind prog, and it just turns out that Advanced Relativity is just braindead easy post prog. The encounters are heavily scripted that the only job that gets varied gameplay in a highly optimized group is proc based jobs like BRD, DNC and jobs that depend on positioning like BLM. This is honestly a problem with 8 man content, not a ranged physical problem.

As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

The thing is, this isn't actually what's wrong with the role. You can do "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" just fine with BRD/DNC. It actually takes a lot more brainpower to adjust GCDs on the fly for DNC and juggle procs as BRD, especially in a two target fight. Procs bring a lot of potential for optimization in encounters, you can say it's RNG, I say it's adapting on the fly. It's skill expression.

The main problem is that even with "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" they're still on the bottom for dps without anything to answer as to "why". Physical Ranged mobility is useless in this tier and raid series. We all just stand in a clockwise position, and move once per minute for mechanics. The only real time I get disadvantaged in a fight as a BLM is during Lion's with no Tether. There's no mechanic that's specific for you to handle, like O11S Panto, that justifies Ranged Physical's movement. No add to kite around the arena. No AoEs that spawn on you. No Twister to bait on your position. No Mustard Bomb to bait away from the party. Nothing.

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

[ssunny2008]

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

Yeah raid design is a serious issue. To static and predictable. OT is there just to be there for the case or to take the 2nd TB. Healers can pretty much rotate with their healing abilities and a lot of bosses can be solo-healed. DPS just need to remember and try out to maximize their damage. But the difference for me lies still in the classes in some way. Playing melee or caster just eats more time in my case to maximize my performance especially with RNG mechanics. I´m way faster with phys. range dps.

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too. It´s up a lot to RNG especially in burst phases with raidbuffs from DRG, MNK, AST... it can make a big difference if your songs or advanced abilites procc or not in such moments. And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

[Payotz]

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too.

I think at this point we can't really argue subjectively about it. These really are your own views, so it's really just up to personal opinion whether you think it's easy or not.
I'm more of the opinion that static jobs (SAM, MCH, GNB, PLD, current MNK) are a lot less skill intensive than proc based jobs because you can pretty much just spend 5 mins on a practice dummy and burn it into your muscle memory to perform well in raid. Memorizing something is a lot easier than adjusting to RNG.

And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

There's nothing wrong with the job if you look at it from that perspective. It's just an issue with how "skill" is presented in FFlogs itself. Most people just look at rdps alone or adps alone as the end-all be-all of player skill when people should be looking at a LOT more factors when determining it. A mistake can very easily be erased by a lucky crit, A green parse can easily be explained by just low ilvl especially after week 8, and clear times also matter for pot timings and raid buff timings as the faster you clear, the more you need to rearrange pot timings so you don't lose usage.

RDPS is a failed metric if you just take a look at RDPS specifically. We all know this. Hell, DPS itself is a failed metric due to how high the differences between damage rolls in this game, especially with crit. We can really see this in how Bard was so sought after in pugs back in Stormblood. One of the main reason why Bard was meta in pugs back in the day was because there was no rdps split from normal DPS. It was just DPS. So people just started wanting more raid buffs, more Trick Attacks, more Battle Litanies. If rdps and adps was split from normal DPS back in SB, I assure you that MCH wouldn't be looked as "BRD but worse" in pugs at all.

So I don't think taking a look at just one metric ALONE is good for determining a player's value and a job's value. Even if you add the caveat of "I'm just a good BRD in terms of DPS", there's a lot more factors that build into that number.

This is honestly why I'm leaning towards clear times as a metric instead. But that would honestly not work in a pug setting, but that's a topic for another time.

[CKNovel]

RDPS is a failed metric if you just take a look at RDPS specifically. We all know this. Hell, DPS itself is a failed metric due to how high the differences between damage rolls in this game, especially with crit. We can really see this in how Bard was so sought after in pugs back in Stormblood. One of the main reason why Bard was meta in pugs back in the day was because there was no rdps split from normal DPS. It was just DPS. So people just started wanting more raid buffs, more Trick Attacks, more Battle Litanies. If rdps and adps was split from normal DPS back in SB, I assure you that MCH wouldn't be looked as "BRD but worse" in pugs at all.

So I don't think taking a look at just one metric ALONE is good for determining a player's value and a job's value. Even if you add the caveat of "I'm just a good BRD in terms of DPS", there's a lot more factors that build into that number.

Not only a poor metric, it's actually the worst and most incomplete way to evaluate a player.
As you said, it's easy to perform a good "score" when the job doesn't have rDPS. You can evaluate a good MCH from a bad MCH. How can you tell if they used mitigation or the AQ was used in raid buffs window from rDPS alone? You can't.
If you spend your resources into those buffs, it's your teammates rDPS that will increase.

DPS is but a step. You need to be able to DPS, but you have many other task to perform. What's the point of being able to get a very good dps output if you're not consistent and makes the progress slow?
Consistency, Learning Speed and Adaptability are things you can't evaluate looking at DPS meter alone. And that's probably why SQEX doesn't want to add one, most player would rely entirely on it.

[ssunny2008]

I think at this point we can't really argue subjectively about it. These really are your own views, so it's really just up to personal opinion whether you think it's easy or not.
I'm more of the opinion that static jobs (SAM, MCH, GNB, PLD, current MNK) are a lot less skill intensive than proc based jobs because you can pretty much just spend 5 mins on a practice dummy and burn it into your muscle memory to perform well in raid. Memorizing something is a lot easier than adjusting to RNG.

I won´t call it so hard subjectively seen. Of course i´ve written "for me", but the thing is, that FF14 doesn´t offer much of a deep gameplay and i agree that you can easily learn a lot of classes at the dummies. Rotations can be learned from anyone. Proccs are just buttons you press as fast as you can. The so called "skill" is more up to decision-making if things goes down under or to find the perfect strategy / spot to beat a boss. Unique gameplay has become really rare with all the class and boss changes.
The current monk is a joke yes, but permanent positionals and the decision about SSS/FS/chakra/TN and RoE are atleast something you can work with. BLM is probably the only class who adjust with the rotation based on proccs and triplecast / teleport etc. Ninjutsu are kind of unique too, but still to "meta-related". I mean, it´s obvious which skill you force to use in several situations.
Healers are actually those who always need to adapt, because some bs can happen at any time and there you clearly see a gap between good and bad healers. On the other hand they are able to perform a clear "healing rotation" thx to the overall boss design.

As i´ve said in the beginning, phys. range are not alone with that thx to SE´s decision-making and primitive boss design. The most classes rely on "press button X in moment Y" and that´s far away from what i personally would call "skill" or atleast deeper gameplay.

Consistency, Learning Speed and Adaptability are things you can't evaluate looking at DPS meter alone. And that's probably why SQEX doesn't want to add one, most player would rely entirely on it.

You´re right, but such skills are personal things. It´s hard to improve for a lot of players, just because the evolution didn´t gave them such gaming-abilities. It´s not possible to measure them. You can only measure DPS, heal and medigation.
The most players just play for DPS and that´s why they fail and / or force the raid to wipe after a death or whatever. It´s like always the E-D comparison and in the nature of humans to feel good to climb "at leaderbords". Aside from that, how hard is it actually to medigate or heal? The most healers are just in trouble because ppl get a hit or die and they wasted swiftcast in their own rotation or don´t have enough mana left thx to pure crit builds. Medigation is just a button you press when the boss casts his aoe. The most players do even rely on any guides, because they don´t read their skills or don´t want to go blind into a bossfight. Even if they do, mostly just 2-3 players arque about a decent strategy. (Man there is even that stupid bot...like why?)

That´s pretty much all this game offers imo and i can feel that healers are the next one who´ll get dumbed down. I can´t understand how so much players can be happy with this and just some new buttons / a different rotation each expansion or actually care about DPS only. The gameplay could be so much more with all the old status effects, TP/MP, tanks and healers being forced to stack their unique stat instead of crit, hardhitting bosses and not just defense on TB, no invul, no heal LB3, just one rezz per bossfight, skilltrees, 3 bosses at once, kiting, dps checks, and and and... and first of all, deep and unique mechanics for every class, not just gimmicks with new animations and bars to load.
SE doesn´t even give the players the chance to improve with their current content line, especially on tanks and phys. range classes.