Gil stolen through market board

[Jijifli]

If you don't live 100% by the rules you are the criminal that deserves to be punished, no matter how reasonable your motive or argument is.

Let's say (AND THIS IS THEORITICAL, OBV NOT DOING THIS) someone showed up to your house, and broke in.

Let's say they stole all your money and belongings, leaving you without it.

Let's say he gets caught red handed, and pleads he needed the money because he was poor.

Are you saying he still should not be punished for his action? Would you say "Alright keep that stuff I understand your point of view"? Because I doubt it, you'd want them to pay for their action.

That is literally this.

[TurtlesAWD]

Let's say (AND THIS IS THEORITICAL, OBV NOT DOING THIS) someone showed up to your house, and broke in.

Let's say they stole all your money and belongings, leaving you without it.

Let's say he gets caught red handed, and pleads he needed the money because he was poor.

Are you saying he still should not be punished for his action? Would you say "Alright keep that stuff I understand your point of view"? Because I doubt it, you'd want them to pay for their action.

That is literally this.

This isn't really a comparable scenario IMO, nor are your conclusions or assumptions about human behavior or motivations accurate.

One of the children who survived the ruinous donner party expedition, a woman whose husband later in life was murdered, cooked the killer's last meal before he was scheduled for execution, because her experience of some of the most desperate conditions a human can endure gave her a deeper understanding of how humans react to desperation. It gave her a more developed sense of empathy. While she obviously didn't think the guy should be freed it's pretty clear her reaction is miles away from what you're hypothesizing. You can want better for those who have wronged you, and you can certainly want better for those who have done something that's not even clearly "wrong" if it's something they feel is necessary. You can simply want a better system for all involved.

[Jijifli]

While she obviously didn't think the guy should be freed it's pretty clear her reaction is miles away from what you're hypothesizing.

I really wanna focus on this part here, because I feel like you're not understand what I was originally putting forward.

If you do somethings that is against rules, and it also has negative impacts on others for your own gain, you should receive punishment for it.

You're even saying yourself in your statement to push against me that she didn't think they should be free for what they did. You can feel bad for people who do wrong things, without also letting the wrong thing slip by. OP broke the rules, and their actions easily could have punished somebody else out of something they worked hard for, without any effort on her own end. It's honestly the closest to stealing a house you can get here.

[TurtlesAWD]

I really wanna focus on this part here, because I feel like you're not understand what I was originally putting forward.

If you do somethings that is against rules, and it also has negative impacts on others for your own gain, you should receive punishment for it.

You're even saying yourself in your statement to push against me that she didn't think they should be free for what they did. You can feel bad for people who do wrong things, without also letting the wrong thing slip by. OP broke the rules, and their actions easily could have punished somebody else out of something they worked hard for, without any effort on her own end. It's honestly the closest to stealing a house you can get here.

I don't really think it is like stealing a house, and if it's the closest thing it still isn't that close. If a human sits at the computer for 12 hours and clicks nonstop is this truly different than using a tool that clicks your mouse for you? In terms of the availability for that house for other players, the impact is the same. And in both cases, you're unable to use your character for a different in-game activity. Is it that the player who sits there and does it manually is somehow "earning" it? I would hope not - that behavior is explicitly what they attempted to prevent by making the timer random. Systemically speaking there is no "earning" a house and they don't want players doing this, either manually or via automation. So should players be punished for manually clicking a house until it becomes available for purchase? I think if you believe that auto clickers are a form of cheating for a house, you're stuck believing that spam clicking at all is cheating for a house. Neither method is the intended way to get a house.

And this is ultimately why I don't think it's worth punishing players who would use an auto clicker to get a house. It's not going to prevent people from doing it - the incentive lies in the way the system is designed. It would be retributive, and it would be retributive for a system that leaves a lot to be desired for what's "fair" to players in the first place. You will never be able to ban, punish, shame, or humiliate people out of using auto clickers, or finding other methods of circumventing it. If you want to advocate for a change to player behavior, you should advocate for a change to the system.

[TurtlesAWD]

I do suspect that people who have clicked a house for hours on end may feel a developed sense of entitlement based on an illusion of "earning" a house, in a similar way that someone who buys lotto tickets weekly may feel like they deserve a win.

Perhaps someone in that situation would feel like someone, or some group, who bought a lot of tickets at once and won "cheated" but they had the same individual chance per ticket. Your enemy in this situation is not the other person who bought more lottery tickets, it's the lottery itself.

Lotteries are bad! Advocate for a less random system. You'll get less incentive to circumvent it.

[Shibi]

I do suspect that people who have clicked a house for hours on end may feel a developed sense of entitlement based on an illusion of "earning" a house, in a similar way that someone who buys lotto tickets weekly may feel like they deserve a win.

Perhaps someone in that situation would feel like someone, or some group, who bought a lot of tickets at once and won "cheated" but they had the same individual chance per ticket.

Well no. It's more like someone buys a ticket legally, while the autoclicker is given a large wad of free tickets.

If one of those free tickets wins, the person who paid will likely not be as happy. At the same time, the person who paid might be quite happy for another genuine winner who also paid.

[TurtlesAWD]

Well no. It's more like someone buys a ticket legally, while the autoclicker is given a large wad of free tickets.

If one of those free tickets wins, the person who paid will likely not be as happy. At the same time, the person who paid might be quite happy for another genuine winner who also paid.

I don't think "given" is quite the right way to look at it - if someone writes a bot to auto-buy all lotto tickets from a specific retailer for instance (let's assume lotto tickets could be sold online which is probably illegal), that's a pretty close comparison, and while I likewise wouldn't think this is great for the people not using those tools, they're still having to pay the money, and they are still risking losing on each ticket.

Maybe a better comparison than lotto tickets is PS5 scalping since the stock for those get bought up via automation very quickly, and much like in-game housing there's utility a ps5 directly provides that something like a lotto ticket doesn't compare to. Personally I don't have a lot of sympathy if scalpers get stuck with consoles they can't sell for months - but the solution to the problem doesn't really involve them I don't think, it lies more in something like waiting list signups or less bulk ordering, or some kind of purchase verification... or just, more available stock.

[MrMagic]

So should players be punished for manually clicking a house until it becomes available for purchase? I think if you believe that auto clickers are a form of cheating for a house, you're stuck believing that spam clicking at all is cheating for a house.

Nope. It's both automation to make playing the game easier and it's also absentee gameplay, absentee being the key word here as to why your argument fails:

"Behaviour that disrupts the game balance
Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools – including programs and tools that permit automated or “absentee” play – in Final Fantasy XIV. Accordingly, the following activities are prohibited:

- Modifying, analysing, integrating, and/or reverse engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
- Exploiting Square Enix programming bugs or glitches.
- Automating gameplay processes.

The Game Master (GM) may speak to players to investigate and confirm “absentee” play, and if the player continues with this behaviour, contrary to the GM's instructions, this will be treated as “absentee” play and subject to penalties."

Also, why in the world should manual clickers be punished?

[TurtlesAWD]

Also, why in the world should manual clickers be punished?

My point is broadly that both manual or using a tool to do so are a circumvention of the system, and because I don't see a difference in terms of the impact on other players, I don't think punishing either is more effective than a change to the system.

I don't think it's impossible for a manual clicker to fall for the same retainer trick either, to be honest. If I was clicking something for 12 hours straight I would 100% be watching something on the side. Not even sure I'd have the game sound on - the housing district theme would probably start to drive me nuts after a while.

[Vahlnir]

My point is broadly that both manual or using a tool to do so are a circumvention of the system

Gonna have to stop you there. Manually clicking is not the same as using a tool, and one is not "circumventing" the system, that being manually clicking. Circumventing the system is using a tool that's against the ToS, and that is not okay regardless of one's point of view.