Nature of the Sound

[EirolOcarrol]

I hold to hope that whatever we don't know about Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn is still good, and heroic. She's been one of my favourite characters since the very beginning, I felt a lot of connection with her as a maternal figure since the very beginning.

I was honestly absolutely crushed by the revelation that she was not only the first, before Zodiark, but that she and Zodiark were both Primals, the thing we've been fighting the whole time. Or at least most of the time. My friends reassured me about her that this didn't change anything, as a big fan of Hydaelyn. And that her being a Primal simply means we're supposed to now have a different outlook on Primals, and not a negative outlook on Hydaelyn, our caretaker.

It seems that my friend group's reassurances aren't necessarily shared by the wider community, though. And the revelations of Shadowbringers has done exactly what I feared. Everyone is turning on and suspecting Hydaelyn of being evil. I'm going to be feel so relieved if Hydaelyn is vindicated in 6.0 or "Forspoken", Shadowbringers has been painful as a fan of Crystal mommy. A lot of people think she's evil now.

It would be nice to have more explanations, soon. I'm sure that's what the next expansion is for. And I really hope we have the chance to talk with her again. We haven't really seen her at all since Word of the Mother.
I miss crystal mommy. She was such a comforting presence and support in 1.0 and 2.0. I always felt a Maternal Goddess figure like her really appealing. And Answers still makes me tear up years later.

[LineageRazor]

It seems that my friend group's reassurances aren't necessarily shared by the wider community, though. And the revelations of Shadowbringers has done exactly what I feared. Everyone is turning on and suspecting Hydaelyn of being evil. I'm going to be feel so relieved if Hydaelyn is vindicated in 6.0 or "Forspoken", Shadowbringers has been painful as a fan of Crystal mommy. A lot of people think she's evil now.

If it's any consolation, Hydaelyn has had folks suspecting her of villainy LONG before this reveal - and even folks who felt strongly that even if her acts ARE entirely benevolent, she's got to go. The very fact that she's a more powerful being is reason enough to tear her down. In the eyes of some, humankind can never be safe, never be secure, as long as such beings exist, whatever their acts, whatever their intentions. Xenophobia, to put it plainly.

The revelation that she's a Primal was a hard blow, to be sure, though it seems quite likely that she's more along the lines of Shiva - a Primal with a real person inside, guiding her actions. This puts her on a different level than other Primals - not a better level, or worse, but it leaves hope that she may genuinely be the benevolent being she was presented as, and not merely a slave to the "programming" she was originally created with.

Personally, I believe she is being presented as someone who is doing the best that she can with the cards she was dealt, who honestly wishes the best for all but who does not have the power to save everyone. She was forced to make some very difficult decisions, with horrific consequences no matter what she chose to do. If she was knowingly responsible for the Sundering, if she knew the consequences before she chose to do it, it was only because not causing the Sundering would have had even worse consequences (most likely, death of the star and all life on it vs. death of the Ancients as a people in exchange for life to live on in some form at all).

I don't think that the writers have any intention on giving up on the idea of presenting Hydaelyn as a good and heroic figure - but she is not, and never has been all-powerful. There's only so much she can do. The folks who are hoping for a Shin Megami Tenshi-esque ending where both the "good" and "bad" gods are terrible people and the only solution is to be rid of them all - I think they're going to be left out in the cold.

[Veloran]

The revelation that she's a Primal was a hard blow, to be sure, though it seems quite likely that she's more along the lines of Shiva - a Primal with a real person inside, guiding her actions. This puts her on a different level than other Primals - not a better level, or worse, but it leaves hope that she may genuinely be the benevolent being she was presented as, and not merely a slave to the "programming" she was originally created with.

Do we even have reason to think Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? Moreover why should we think she isn't tempered, when Elidibus was?

[LineageRazor]

Do we even have reason to think Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? Moreover why should we think she isn't tempered, when Elidibus was?

Do we have reason to think that Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? I don't think we've been given a lot of evidence that she doesn't. But, then, we haven't been given much evidence of anything at all. The true nature of Hydaelyn is still largely obscured to us, since nearly all the information we've gotten on the topic has been from a biased source (Emet-Selch), and the little bit we got elsewhere hasn't revealed much, either. All we really know is that the Dissenters planned to summon Hydaelyn, the Venat planned to be her heart, and that Hydaelyn was, indeed, eventually summoned.

As for Tempering, that depends on whether Tempering is a necessary and innate aspect of Primals, or whether it's something the Primals' creators baked into the product. There's reason to believe that ability to Temper might have been something the Convocation added on purpose - the world's woes were being caused by uncontrolled Creation magic, after all, so one way to combat the problem would be to create an entity that can impose his own control over individuals. The Ascians included Tempering when they taught the Beast Tribes to Summon, as doing so helped encourage the Tribes to summon again and again, and in general caused a lot of chaos.

If Tempering WAS a deliberate addition, then the Dissenters wouldn't necessarily have to include that aspect when they created their own Primal.

Personally, Lin, I feel the most likely candidate for the being within Hydaelyn has to be Venat. However, that also brings up the question of how Zodiark will behave with Elidibus now gone. And... As much as I know you don't like Zenos... I feel the story might be setting it up so that he becomes the next core of Zodiark, functionally making him a wild beast. It's very likely Fandaniel, lacking the same reverence for Zodiark, happily would use this as a ploy, likely even hoping for the WoL&D to destroy Zodiark, undoing Zodiark's re-writing of the laws of the star, and returning The Sound.

Oh, I've little doubt that's exactly the plan they have for Zenos. Even before Elidibus was revealed as Zodiark's heart, when Zenos expressed an interest in Zodiark I predicted that he'd be merging with him eventually. Whether or not I like Zenos, I recognized ages ago that he was being propped up as our foil, and as the Villian Sue to our Mary Sue, I have no doubt that he will succeed at everything he attempts, up until the final battle (in which he'll finally lose to us. Again. Hopefully it will stick this time.).

[Lusavari]

As for Tempering, that depends on whether Tempering is a necessary and innate aspect of Primals, or whether it's something the Primals' creators baked into the product. There's reason to believe that ability to Temper might have been something the Convocation added on purpose - the world's woes were being caused by uncontrolled Creation magic, after all, so one way to combat the problem would be to create an entity that can impose his own control over individuals. The Ascians included Tempering when they taught the Beast Tribes to Summon, as doing so helped encourage the Tribes to summon again and again, and in general caused a lot of chaos.

If Tempering WAS a deliberate addition, then the Dissenters wouldn't necessarily have to include that aspect when they created their own Primal.

There's evidence for and against what you have to say, both in the Stormblood Primals. Susano-o didn't seem particularly interested in tempering the Kojin, but then again... his summoning wasn't exactly traditional. Kojin treasures are particularly prone to spawning primals when exposed to high aetherial levels though. They haven't made any known attempts to temper, in support of your baking argument.

However... Then we look at Lakshmi, another primal that was NOT summoned on purpose. She was summoned out of grief, and like the Kojin, the Ananta were never taught about summoning. Lakshmi appeared when the queen's daughter was killed and resurrected her. However, Lakshmi has been demonstrated to be the most temper-happy of all primals. The Ananta were pretty shocked when she appeared. They had no clue about anything relating to summoning.

I would argue it's just part of the natural skill set of a primal, as part of their self-preservation. It just seems to depend on the personality of the Primal as to how much they feel a need to do it, with Primals like Alexander deeming themselves to be too dangerous to the natural state of the world to allow themselves to continue to exist, thus Alexander didn't temper ANYTHING.

[YianKutku]

I would argue it's just part of the natural skill set of a primal, as part of their self-preservation. It just seems to depend on the personality of the Primal as to how much they feel a need to do it, with Primals like Alexander deeming themselves to be too dangerous to the natural state of the world to allow themselves to continue to exist, thus Alexander didn't temper ANYTHING.

Curiously, King Moggle Mog also seemed not to temper anyone, even his summoners. I caveat this because with Moogles, it's honestly difficult to tell.

But after the initial summoning and defeat, the Mogglesguard didn't receive any consequences other than being scolded by Kuplo Kopp, which made them angry enough to summon King Moggle Mog again. Notably even the Serpent representative who gives the quest for Thornmarch Extreme didn't say anything about the possibility of the Mogglesguard being tempered, but just that Kuplo's scolding had the opposite effect.

And yes, given the apparent contradiction in motives between the Goblin Illuminati and Alexander, I don't think Alexander tempered the Goblins either.

[Mansion]

when Zenos expressed an interest in Zodiark I predicted that he'd be merging with him eventually.

Because that worked out so well for him when he did the exact same thing with Shinryu... It's time the baddies understand that merging with primals isn't the best way to defeat the primal-slayer WoL.

Joke aside, I really wish we are led to believe this but then something more suprising happens (like Zenos killing Primals to make him our equal or something).

[Iscah]

There's a set of logs in Academia Adynar that describe the development of the Sound. And how it "moved" from one location to another, driving Creation Magic crazy as it went.

The fact that it was moving around suggest there is maybe a source that was emitting the Sound. What that source is, we just have to wait and find out in 6.0 but if lucky they may start revealing a glimps of it in 5.5/5.55

The moving part is also important since it means the source was not teleporting by physically moving. This would mean the source of the sound had to start at a specific area of the world and made its way to Amarot as its final stop.

Do you have the quote for that? Did it really say the sound was "moving" like a single source travelling from place to place, or was it spreading to more places over time?

But the Shakespeare references don't end there. The main theme is called "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" which is titled as such to recall the famous "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" speech made by Macbeth, from the play Macbeth. What's key here is that Emet, much like Macbeth, believes they are invincible, destiny has chosen them rule and win, and can't conceive how they will fall. Macbeth's speech is the moment that he realizes that following the evil path of murder has lead him to a meaningless life, so does Emet realized in his final moments where he begs us to remember we once lived. Not to mention the concurring themes of good trimuphing over evil.

I'm not that good on Shakespeare references so I had to look that up.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1533/1533-h/1533-h.htm

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

It doesn't really fit with the song to me, besides a loose similarity about life being ephemeral - but this is regretful and the song is more joyous, about living on in memory.

The Anyder

I don't see any reason to call them that as an organisation. Unless I'm misinterpreting, they use that term as a short form for the Anamnesis Anyder, which is odd anyway because there are at least two different locations in Amaurot with the suffix - the other being the Akadaemia which seems to be the base for the Convocation.

I hold to hope that whatever we don't know about Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn is still good, and heroic. She's been one of my favourite characters since the very beginning, I felt a lot of connection with her as a maternal figure since the very beginning.

I agree. It feels like every story that starts with a benevolent god-figure is guaranteed to have them turn out evil by the end, and sometimes it's just nice for them to actually be what they claim they are - or in Hydaelyn's case at this point, for her to retain her stated love for us even if she isn't exactly the goddess we were led to think she was.

The 8th fight in Eden has an extremely important message in it's lyrics. That merger was no coincidence when you consider the color of her hair changes depending on which form she was currently in. Shiva retains her silver hue. While Hydaelyn/Venat... Was a blonde.

I'm not sure why you're thinking Venat figures into the symbolism of the Eden fight - she's never talked about there. Ryne's form is just representing Hydaelyn's Light as opposed to Shiva's ice, perhaps with a nod back to her blonde appearance while she was Minfilia's vessel.

[Riastrad]

I'm not sure why you're thinking Venat figures into the symbolism of the Eden fight - she's never talked about there. Ryne's form is just representing Hydaelyn's Light as opposed to Shiva's ice, perhaps with a nod back to her blonde appearance while she was Minfilia's vessel.

Only due to Venat being Hydaelyn's heart. Shiva as a primal retained a portion of her physical likeness. Why wouldn't the same go for Venat as Hydaelyn? Nothing in this game is coincidental. SE has always been extremely careful when it comes to details.


Take the Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow reference for example. You posted it in regard to Kesey's post.

I'm not that good on Shakespeare references so I had to look that up.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1533/1533-h/1533-h.htm

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

It doesn't really fit with the song to me, besides a loose similarity about life being ephemeral - but this is regretful and the song is more joyous, about living on in memory.

Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge
A reflection in the glass
Recollections of our past
Swift as darkness, cold as ash
Far beyond this dream of paradise lost

These lyrics, taken from the Shadowbringers theme along with the lyrics to Tomorrow and Tomorrow, are in sync with each another. He's right. Emet had a change of heart the moment he had made the Fourteenth's stone in secret. He wanted a better way forward. He only asked not to forget them and to learn from their mistakes. The "Swift as darkness, cold as ash" is about rash actions and their results.

Rock of ages, we cast the first stone
In our cages, we know not what we do

Indecision here at the crossroads
Recognition, tomorrow's come too soon

Follow blindly like lambs to slaughter
At the mercy of those who ply the sword

As our song wends dead underwater
We're forgotten for now and evermore

See? It all connects to each other. Every detail compliments the other.


Edited, Sorry Iscah. I had yet to finish the post.

[Veloran]

Do we have reason to think that Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? I don't think we've been given a lot of evidence that she doesn't.

Venat does say that she'll appear again in a new form. The implication is that she was the original soul of Minfilia.

There's reason to believe that ability to Temper might have been something the Convocation added on purpose - the world's woes were being caused by uncontrolled Creation magic, after all, so one way to combat the problem would be to create an entity that can impose his own control over individuals.

I don't really think that's accurate at all to the issue of the Sound and the Final Days. Creation magic running rampant was more of a symptom than a cause, and we have good reason to believe that Zodiark's tempering wasn't some intentional inclusion to restrict creation magic, as evidenced by the Anyder using creation magic to summon Hydaelyn.

I don't see any reason to call them that as an organisation. Unless I'm misinterpreting, they use that term as a short form for the Anamnesis Anyder, which is odd anyway because there are at least two different locations in Amaurot with the suffix - the other being the Akadaemia which seems to be the base for the Convocation.

I'm vaguely of the belief that the Akadaemia and the Anamnesis are really just two branches of the college, and since they were the ones that summoned Hydaelyn calling them the Anyder is about as good as anything else.