Do the Scions know? (Spoilers)

[Rasler_Heios]

This could possibly be a spoiler even though it's been out for a while now, so I'm not going to hide it. If you think that's necessary, just let me know and I'll put spoiler tags around the below.

But specifically, do Urianger and Y'shtola know that we are Azem or at least an Ancient? I'm wondering if a conversation happened off-screen. Because I'm very curious to see how they would react to that. And if they haven't been told, do you think we are waiting for the right moment?

They already know that Ardbert shares the same soul as us. Surely that would raise questions?

Yes, I've been wondering about this too ever since finishing 5.0. What I understand is, the Scions know who Azem is, which is a member of the Convocation of the Fourteen. As to whether they know that we currently hold 'the Seat of Azem" is not really clear. I think that they don't, that the WoL is biding his/her time before telling them, and tries to lean more before doing so. I mean s/he probably is wary of what their reaction would be knowing they are working with one who holds a convocation title.

[Rasler_Heios]

I could be over thinking this theory, but I'm starting to wonder about the speculation Urianger had at the end of 5.3 about the connections between world religious beliefs and the crossover with Azem. We see the deification of "The 12" where one member was called Azem and I begin to wonder if the ancient soul shards in the other Scions correlate back the other deities in "The 12" and they weren't really gods but a group of adventurers who saved the world together long ago and were important enough to be remembered but over time the story gets muddied and they are recognized as deities. Even places like the Azim Steppe where Azem is the central deity, still interacts in their religious stories with other beings.

There were prevailing theories before that "the 12" were the main group who opposed the Convocation of Fourteen and originally called Hydealyn. When the star split, this original group were in the source and helped propagate a religion in line to their beliefs. The weird thing here is you are using the title/seat of Azem which is used by the Convocation. Azem defecting to this other group might have chosen another name/title to go by, but instead was still using the same name/title.

[Rasler_Heios]

I mean, technically everyone is a former Ancient, I think what is meant is that we are a former member of the Convocation.

Well, my understanding is, when one dies, they go back to the Lifestream. Hence, everyone, is a reborn, sundered soul of an Ancient/Amaurotine. The WoL is said to be reincarnated and assumes the title/seat of Azem. This seems to be more plausible, though I really thought before that the WoL is the original Azem, sundered at the time of the Sundering.

[Eloah]

Well, my understanding is, when one dies, they go back to the Lifestream. Hence, everyone, is a reborn, sundered soul of an Ancient/Amaurotine. The WoL is said to be reincarnated and assumes the title/seat of Azem. This seems to be more plausible, though I really thought before that the WoL is the original Azem, sundered at the time of the Sundering.

This is exactly right, based on what we are told by Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. We are a fragment of the former individual who held the seat of Azem. And because we are of the Source, we are the vessel which all fragments return to, a Soul Jar if you will.

Currently the people of the source have 8/14 fragments, though ourselves, Ryne, and G'raha Tia have 9/14. Though G'raha's is a bit odd because, the alleged 9th fragment was an alternate him. But yes, it has been stated that we are a fragment of Azem, we are the main fragment as it were.

It's worth noting that Ancient is not synonymous with Ascian. All Ascians are Ancients but not all Ancients are Ascians. And there are several individuals who have also gained Ascian-like powers, like Zenos and Minfilia.

[Iscah]

Though G'raha's is a bit odd because, the alleged 9th fragment was an alternate him.

If you're meaning that his ninth fragment is "the Exarch", it's more complicated (but also more simple) than that.

As his younger self, he has the same eight fragments as everyone in the Source.

As the Exarch, he has lived through the Eighth Calamity and been rejoined to his ninth fragment, an unidentified person from the bad-timeline version of the First. (That person is still out there somewhere in the good-timeline version of the First that we visit in the game.)

With the two versions of his soul merged, the rule seems to be that "duplicates don't count" so he ultimately has nine unique pieces: the eight that both versions possessed, and one extra from the Exarch. If the First was somehow rejoined at this point, he would receive a second copy of that ninth soul and his total count wouldn't go up.

[Kesey]

We actually have no evidence of this. Half the Amaurotines were sacrificed to restart the proliferation of life on the planet, but we're never actually told that this life is materially any different from the rest of the unsundered life previously existing on the star. We also don't know the timeline of how long this went on before the Anyder summoned Hydaelyn and the Sundering happened, or whether any sort of new races/species ever came into existence in that period. Personally I think Hydaelyn is directly responsible for what forms the sundered life took after the star was shattered.

Obviously souls can exist outside of all this as evidenced by the dragons, so for Alpha we should just assume he developed a soul on his own.

I think it was established that the Allagans created the Ixali and the giants surrounding the crystal tower. So there is post sundered races that came into being, even if they are just beast tribes.

[Eloah]

If you're meaning that his ninth fragment is "the Exarch", it's more complicated (but also more simple) than that.

As his younger self, he has the same eight fragments as everyone in the Source.

As the Exarch, he has lived through the Eighth Calamity and been rejoined to his ninth fragment, an unidentified person from the bad-timeline version of the First. (That person is still out there somewhere in the good-timeline version of the First that we visit in the game.)

With the two versions of his soul merged, the rule seems to be that "duplicates don't count" so he ultimately has nine unique pieces: the eight that both versions possessed, and one extra from the Exarch. If the First was somehow rejoined at this point, he would receive a second copy of that ninth soul and his total count wouldn't go up.

Ah there we go, that's what I was forgetting. Thanks for the reminder.

[LineageRazor]

How do we know Grenoldt is a soul fragment of the same soul as Gerolt? How do we know Mowen is a soul fragment of the same soul as Rowena?

We don't - and, in fact, in an interview just prior to the release of Shadowbringers, Yoshi P mentioned that we might see familiar faces on the First, but that these people are not necessarily shared souls. Rather, that certain trades tend to attract a certain type of person, nothing more.

The fact that these people are similar to counterparts on the First is not an indicator that they share souls. In fact, the one undeniable instance of shared souls we know about (the WoL and Ardbert) would indicate that people with shared souls are NOT similar in appearance. (That is, unless you created your WoL to look just like Ardbert, I suppose.)

Veloran is correct in that Ardbert and the WoL have a lot of similarities, and that they share these similarities with Azem - a penchant for gathering allies, wandering the land, and performing acts of dogoodery. However, the Azem example is the ONLY confirmed example of a shared soul we have on hand at the moment. Anyone else is speculation, not confirmed by any means - and thanks to Yoshi P's interview, outright suspect at best. Mowen is similar to Rowena because her profession tends to attract Rowena-like people, nothing more. Could she be a shared soul? It's not impossible, but it would require an AMAZING set of coincidences to pull off, considering that time moves at a different rate on the First than it does on the Source, and considering that soul fragments can be reborn as any race. We'd need both Mowen's and Rowena's shards to be born into Hyur/Hume bodies at just the right time so that when the WoL winds up traveling to the First they both happen to be the same age.

[Veloran]

How do we know Grenoldt is a soul fragment of the same soul as Gerolt? How do we know Mowen is a soul fragment of the same soul as Rowena?

Because I didn't say who they were supposed to be fragments of and you instantly knew anyway.

We don't - and, in fact, in an interview just prior to the release of Shadowbringers, Yoshi P mentioned that we might see familiar faces on the First, but that these people are not necessarily shared souls. Rather, that certain trades tend to attract a certain type of person, nothing more.

The fact that these people are similar to counterparts on the First is not an indicator that they share souls. In fact, the one undeniable instance of shared souls we know about (the WoL and Ardbert) would indicate that people with shared souls are NOT similar in appearance. (That is, unless you created your WoL to look just like Ardbert, I suppose.)

Veloran is correct in that Ardbert and the WoL have a lot of similarities, and that they share these similarities with Azem - a penchant for gathering allies, wandering the land, and performing acts of dogoodery. However, the Azem example is the ONLY confirmed example of a shared soul we have on hand at the moment. Anyone else is speculation, not confirmed by any means - and thanks to Yoshi P's interview, outright suspect at best. Mowena is similar to Rowena because her profession tends to attract Rowena-like people, nothing more. Could she be a shared soul? It's not impossible, but it would require an AMAZING set of coincidences to pull off, considering that time moves at a different rate on the First than it does on the Source, and considering that soul fragments can be reborn as any race. We'd need both Mowena's and Rowena's shards to be born into Hyur/Hume bodies at just the right time so that when the WoL winds up traveling to the First they both happen to be the same age.

They quite literally have all the same appearance settings outside of their haircuts, they're in the exact same lines of work, and they have the exact same personalities to the point of speaking exactly the same. Being the same races isn't much of coincidence either, especially since 90% of the First was nuked. Saying that they're not shared souls, especially when Mowen says that she's somehow dreamed of being business partners with WoL before they first appear (And as we see with the Pixies there's some weird connection with crossing the rift and dreams), is just raw denial.

[YianKutku]

Because I didn't say who they were supposed to be fragments of and you instantly knew anyway.

Because I'm approaching it from the point of media analysis, not diegetic assumptions. Please don't pretend that this has not already been discussed many, many times prior in this lore forum.