A thing or two about Werlyt

[EliTheGunbreaker]

Regarding Emet manipulating us into absorbing the Lightwardens... I think it is mentioned that for a Rejoining to happen, both worlds would have to be on a brink a catastrophe. Depending on when exactly he found out about WoL's arrival, it could be a case of "Imma just let the WoL absorb the Lightwardens and encourage them further, both bring a Calamity and get rid of a threat". And then there are tempering and unresolved feelings towards Azem, which even further further complicates his feelings towards us. He was set on following through with his mission... But there was also a part of him that wanted for us to succeed, to prove him wrong that there is worth in modern humanity after all, with us reminding him of Azem. Which is yet another reason for him to not be as active as it could be. At his core, Emet is a character largely driven by grief, he very often acts on it, in a variety of ways( further illustrated in Through His Eyes).

As for Lahabrea's direct intervention and the disapproval of the other Unsundered regarding it... I think it says something about the Ascians on magical level, alongside with Lahabrea being reckless and leaving traces of his involvement. Emet says in a ShB dialogue if you click on him at one point that most Ascians tend to stick to one body and Lahabrea exhausted himself by constantly hopping. Also, he says that Varis killing his body is a waste of energy for him, which implies possession/ sustainment of certain bodies could be tiring to the Ascians similarly to how mortals can deplete their aether while spellcasting if they use it from their own reserves.

[Kesey]

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Incidentally, the reason Emet-Selch doesn't posses Varis is because someone needs to head over to the 1st Shard to make sure it's still on track for a Rejoining when Black Rose goes off. And the Ascians looking over the 1st Shard are now dead... And why waste time possessing someone who has already been manipulated into doing what you want them to do. No one gets on Varis' nerves like Emet-Selch does.

Emet specifically mentions in the throne room that another opportunity has presented itself, which was the WOL going to the first, potentially absorbing the light wardens and either becoming a light warden themself allowing for a rejoining or overcoming the light wardens and in the process retake the seat of Azem and becoming an Ascian. Remember the real thing that disgusts Emet in Shadowbringers is that the WOL just doesn't remember. In his scheming mind it was a win-win because he couldn't foresee us averting the light warden problem by just remerging with Ardbert (who was ironically stopped from passing on to death by Minfilia-Hydaelyn), instead of ascending to Azem the Ascian.

I'm not sure we can read Emet's comments about humanity as his plan, its was more like surprise while I was scheming to get a rejoining by flood of light or my old friend Azem back, humans showed they were capable and stronger than I thought, but still not ultimately good enough.

[LineageRazor]

On the topic of whether Gaius's warmongering makes him "evil", it should be noted that he plainly believed that conquering the other lands was for the greater good. He felt that strong leaders were necessary to prevent "weak leaders from leading the people astray", and that conquest was a necessary evil in order to oust those weak leaders and to ensure that the peoples of those lands had a better tomorrow (under strong Garlean rule). He saw unneccesary slaughter, such as that caused by Meteor or Black Rose to be undesirable, albiet for pragmatic rather than humanitarian reasons. I definitely think this paints him as a man of grey morality, rather than black, and thus capable of redemption.

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

Somehow, though, Gaius has come to some kind of epiphany that Ascians popping out of the woodwork suddenly means everything he believed in is a lie. That just seems like too big a jump for me, too big a change to his character.

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Well, this isn't QUITE right. In both timelines, Gaius and crew are presumably destroying stockpiles, but the reason things go pear-shaped is because the Warrior of Light is participating fully in the war against the Garleans. The WoL's involvement pushes Varis so far into a corner that he unleashes the Black Rose - just in time for the First to flood into the Source with all its Umbrally-charged Aether.

In the saved timeline, this doesn't happen. The WoL is busy stablizing the First, and the Alliance-Garlean war is at a stalemate instead. Gaius also does not have Alphinaud to help destroy Black Rose, for whatever difference that makes.

The differences between the two timelines take place because of the Crystal Exarch's involvement, and his involvement basically involves removing the WoL and the Scions from the picture. Anything else, presumably, would have happened the same way in both timelines. If Gaius is destroying Black Rose in the saved timeline, he probably was also doing it in the doomed one. If he wasn't - why wasn't he? What change did the Exarch make to send him on a different path? And if it wasn't the Exarch, what else could have?

[Kesey]

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

But Gaius needs to WANT redemption to FIND redemption. And I'm pretty sure he finds that by spending time with the peoples he formerly wanted to conquer. You can also see the fights with the WOL that Gaius lost as moments that forced him to open his eyes, because by his logic if we beat him he isn't the rightful person to save and rule the people of the world.

[EliTheGunbreaker]

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

While I do agree that the Ascians alone wouldn't be enough for him to want change, for him to want it, he has to realize that what he did was not a good thing. I do feel like this is the issue Werlyt attempts to tackle. Him coming to terms that a lot of destruction is not just the Ascians, but also his fault. As Kesey said, he has to see the lives of people that used to be below him, from a much closer perspective. Alas, the writing of it is pretty heavy-handed, which is what makes me sad, hence my original post.

Somehow, though, Gaius has come to some kind of epiphany that Ascians popping out of the woodwork suddenly means everything he believed in is a lie. That just seems like too big a jump for me, too big a change to his character.

Nowhere has it been stated that he had a big realization prior to Werlyt. The way it looked like to me, he went on a personal vendetta because of a grudge, which is not an evil thing on it's own, but not a good thing either. More like... He became more cooperable due to both this and the sheer unlikeliness that people would accept him back in Garlemald again. That being said... The idea that one's entire philosophy and set of morals were actually created by someone else to exploit everyone, him included, was a possible prompt for self-reflection. This is another thing I would like explored closely. His relationship with Solus, his image of him and how the revelation that a figure he was so close to ended up to be the very thing he hates, with Garlemald's entire ideology built to just sow more chaos. That and the realization that he is actually to blame for a lot of things could prompt a redemption arc in the future. If things go the way I hope.

My problem is... All of these should have been smoother, more logical and conclusive. They didn't have to make him oblivious to everything he's done, or to make Cid go soft on him. Sometimes realizations are not done in one night. What I wanted is for it to be a gradual process of "yes, I see I've been guilty" instead of "I am surprised all of this was done right under my nose because apparently I have no idea what is going on". In an attempt to take the blame off him, they made his characterization less believable in the process, and now I just hope he survives Werlyt without any shitty betrayal plot twists, maybe something can be done afterwards.

[Veloran]

I just hope he survives Werlyt without any shitty betrayal plot twists

You've mentioned this a bunch of times, why do you think a betrayal from Gaius is even on the table?

[EliTheGunbreaker]

You've mentioned this a bunch of times, why do you think a betrayal from Gaius is even on the table?

Though I may have hopes and estimations, I can never be 100% certain of what do the devs have on the table. I may say certain things are more likely than the others from where I see it, but no one except the devs knows the whole picture. And the last Werlyt installment made me very... Disillusioned, so to speak. All in all, I am not sure what they are going for, and it makes me worried.

[Kesey]

Though I may have hopes and estimations, I can never be 100% certain of what do the devs have on the table. I may say certain things are more likely than the others from where I see it, but no one except the devs knows the whole picture. And the last Werlyt installment made me very... Disillusioned, so to speak. All in all, I am not sure what they are going for, and it makes me worried.

The devs are pretty good at foreshadowing betrayal. Fandaniel has telegraphed he will do betrayals. Misija's betrayal in Bozja was clearly telegraphed.

But Gaius hasn't set anything like that up.

[EliTheGunbreaker]

The devs are pretty good at foreshadowing betrayal. Fandaniel has telegraphed he will do betrayals. Misija's betrayal in Bozja was clearly telegraphed.

But Gaius hasn't set anything like that up.

There is a Resistance report that voices suspicion about him possibly betraying us in the future. And then there is Valdeaulin, who has the same suspicion.

[Rymi64]

There is a Resistance report that voices suspicion about him possibly betraying us in the future. And then there is Valdeaulin, who has the same suspicion.

Which report was it, ive read all of them and dont recall one voicing suspicion of him betraying us potentially. Specially since he isn't a part of bozja stuff.