A thing or two about Werlyt

[Kesey]

I think you missed the point. The man said himself. He just sows the seeds and lets people do what they want he doesn't interfere directly unless needed. He was also very open about his plotting, just the fact that he was doing it not what his plan was though.


@above Gaius was in control of Ala Mhigo the entire time until ARR. Nael simply had the lead on the second invasion after the battle of Slivertear. She wasn't in control of the city.

No, you still missed the point. If Emet was just sowing the seeds he would have left us alone on the first instead of following us around, encouraging us to absorb the light of light wardens to become a light warden ourselves. Why even reveal Amaurot? Or the information about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals? He was interfering directly, under the "guise" of he's not, so as to get his rejoining.

[Veloran]

If Emet was just sowing the seeds he would have left us alone on the first instead of following us around, encouraging us to absorb the light of light wardens to become a light warden ourselves.

That's literally a case of "don't tell me what to do I'm already doing it" though. If he was so dead-set on interfering directly he could have just possessed Varis and ordered the deployment of Black Rose himself, but he didn't. For every Calamity we know the events of the Ascians primarily just seem to set up dominos then let them fall, the one who seems to have had no problems getting directly involved was Lahabrea. Of course Emet was fine with influencing and prodding things, but it's only at the very end he offers his ultimatum and decides to see how things will turn out.

[EliTheGunbreaker]

( RE Obsidian, great, Cilia)

The whole thing about Garlean ideology and how it came to be reminded me of a conversation I had with my friend. While we don't have that much lore on the Republic( SE we want a Garlic expansion T_T), I feel like what is the closest to the truth would be that the Ascians fostered the seeds of prejudice that already were due to the Garleans being mistreated by their neighbors and blowing it out of proportions by giving Garlemald a leader they worship nudging them in certain direction. Where Solus pointed, people followed because they agreed with him. And it wouldn't be the first time the people in this game or IRL followed a charismatic person whom they regarded as a savior of sorts. Or maybe not even that charismatic, as we see in Ishgardians following King Thordan to slay a dragon.

In the end, it matters less how a government and society like Garlemald came to to be, what matters more is the fact that it is what it is, and it has become a problem to both citizens and conquered lands alike, very likely as the Ascians intended, and there is very little chance that a ( non-civillian)person who believes in it is a person without their hands stained in blood. The Empire as it is fosters a lot of destructive beliefs while discouraging a lot of good thing. And in the end, those who are born there, be it Gaius, Cid, Varis, Nero or whoever reap the way it is. If one is not a civillian, he options are to either defect or become a reflection of that system. And the Empire seems to more than encourage loyalty towards it's government. All in all, whether these are Ascians, Garleans, or both who created this, in the end, everyone is fed the same ideology.

I do find it interesting that he did not instantly resume conquest in 2.0, but I think there was a strategic reason for that if I remember right( think I read an article about tnat, but it was Google Translated from Japanese), or that he didn't go back to the remaining Castra. Was it Valdeaulin that stopped him? But then that begs he question on why strike a bargain with the elf instead of cutting him down. I wonder if returning to the Empire after such a failure would have been with disgrace or punishment... They did say in 2.x Gaius had problems after disobeying Garlemald to stop Nael. If memory serves me right, conquest of Eorzea should have rectified that, but... It went where it went. I am also curious about him attackig Zenos and foing to Ala Mhigo afterwards. If elaborated upon, this could shed more light on re exact relationship he had with Solus aka Emet and showcase more about what exact boundaries he has. I hope these points are elaborated on in the future.

As for al the Versper Bay discussion I think what Kuroka meant related to how I said that act alone is not the evilest thing that has been done in this universe or should be judged exclusively in Gaius and Livia when we and our superiors do the same. There may have been more vicious ways to do it too.

[Veloran]

even with the Legati that are shown to be less evil than the rest the people on top of the Garlean military( Gaius and the Gabranths).

I'm not sure how accurate this is. In Ala Mhigo Nael and then Zenos took over rulership of the country, and in Dalmasca it seems like a pretty large part of the population is happy to support Gabranth rather than the old aristocracy.

[ObsidianFire]

For better or for worse, hammering out the timeline of Garlemald's conquests is... hard to do with how scattered all the info is in both the games and the lore books... Here's the best I've managed to do for all the events that have actual dates attached...

6th Astral Era
1513 - Solus (Emet-Selch) introduces magitek into the Garlean military
1515 - Garlemald starts conquering Ilsabard
1520 - Giaus van Baelsar is born
1522 - Ilsabard is conquered and the Garlean Empire is founded
1531 - Varis zos Galvus is born
???? - The XIVth Legion is formed under Giaus van Baelsar, former Tribunus Angusticlavius of the XIth Legion
1543 - Nero tol Scaeva and Cid nan Carlod are born
1551 - Livia sas Junis and Zenos yae Galvus are born (yes, they are the same age)
1553 - The XIVth Legion gets to that Ala Mhigan/Ilsabardian border
1557 - The XIVth Legion succeeds in annexing Ala Mhigo for the Empire
???? - Giaus van Baelsar shuts down Black Rose and probably takes in Cid and Livia (and presumably his other kids) around this time
1562 - Battle of Silvertear Skies, Baelsar's Wall is constructed, Bozja is destoryed by Dalamud, Cid nan Garlod defects to Eorzea and founds the Ironworks (this was a very busy and important year!)
1572 - Events of 1.0

7th Umbral Era
- The XIVth Legion builds their Eorzean Castra with the backing of the Garlean Empire.
- Giaus van Baelsaur does not immediately begin the Eorzean conquest as he doesn’t have a means of dealing with the primals he knows will be summoned.
- Livia sas Junis and part of the XIVth Legion are dispatched to Dalmasca to quell anti-Garlean uprisings (helping Noah van Gilbranth I'm assuming)
- The Crania Lupi (Skulls) are formed under the XIVth Legion.
- Nero tol Scavea restores Ultima Weapon.
- Giaus van Baelsaur lets Varis zos Galvus, the High Legatus, know that he can conquer Eorzea now that he has a means of dealing with primals. Varis orders Giaus not to conquer Eorzea, but Gaius does it anyway; this results in him and the entire XIVth Legion going AWOL.
- Giaus van Baelsaur first meets Lahabrea.

7th Astral Era
- Operation Archon takes place. While the Eorzean Alliance blockades the XIVth Legion’s castra, they ultimately leave them alone. The only castra to really suffer heavy damage is Castrum Meridianum when Lahabrea casts Ultima.
- In the wake of Operation Archon, Zenos and the XIIth Legion take over Gyr Abania and absorb the remaining personal of the XIVth Legion into their own. This would include all the personal from Ala Mhigo to Castrum Oriens and Baelsar’s Wall as well as the Skulls.
- As of the Keeper of the Lake dungeon (2.5), part of the XIVth Legion is still cut off from Garlamald. This is probably true for all of the XIVth Legion in the castra west of Baelsar’s Wall.

I actually need to go in and add the data from the Werlyt quests to this. But we do know that it took the XIVth Legion several years to annex Ala Mhigo (four to be exact) and even after all that... it took them ten years to even try to conquer the other Eorzea city-states the first time. Which failed due to Midgardsormr's intervention. And even after that, it takes another ten years for Nael to try to conquer Eorzea again. The effort to take Aldenard over certainly isn't fast or quick on the Garlean's end. It's... kinda not hard to see why Eorzea got lazy in the... twenty years since Ala Mhigo's annexation about Garlemald. For all they knew, Garlemald had decided they weren't worth the effort to conquer!

What is interesting is that Gaius wasn't willing to conquer Eorzea until he had a method to deal with Primals. He knew they were the real problem he was going to have to deal with. For all that he uses the Ultima Weapon to force an ultimatum against the Eorzean City-States, the real benefit of the Ultima Weapon is that it can contain Primals and keep them from tempering people and being summoned. Which had... never been done before to a primal in recent times! And for five years, there had been no one who was fighting against Primals who couldn't be Tempered by them on Eorzea's side. So... from Gaius' perspecive, the Ultima Weapon is the solution to a huge problem Eorzea has (failing to deal with Primals) and they would have a very good reason to put themselves under him (they join the Garlean Empire under Gaius in exchange for his anti-primal weapon making primals not a problem). Also... given what the rest of Garlemald is like... being under Gaius assuming the Empire is going to win is not the worst place to end up in. Only thing is... Ultima Weapon has a completely different purpose and Eorzea does have an anti-primal weapon of their own now (WoL). And that changes the situation entirely.

When it comes to Gaius' current activities. Gaius has told us he actually did plan to die at the Praetorium. We beat him, he knew it and he'd rather suffer a graceful defeat he knows he deserved than continue fighting a war he knew he was going to eventually lose. And then he thought of all his subordinates who had died because they were loyal to him (rather than the Empire) who he'd... pretty much gotten killed by following an Ascian's advice. And that ticked him off as their deaths would be... basically worthless if he didn't do anything with the information he now had about the Ascians' motivations. As he was leaving the Praetorium, he came upon Valdeaulin, who had a serious beef with Gaius over stuff that happened in Gyr Abania and wants to kill Gaius over that. Gaius manages to talk Valdeaulin out of it by telling him what Gaius plans on doing against the Ascians and Valdeaulin is... pragmatic enough... to realize that'll keep a lot of other innocent people from being killed in the long run. So he tells Gaius he'll both be helping Gaius with that and that if Gaius starts doing the whole conquering nations thing again... Valdeaulin will kill him.

It's worth pointing out that... most of the (sane) Garleans we've seen are still loyal to the idea of a Garlean State of some kind. That is where all of them grew up and all of them are from. They just don't like the way it is currently being run. Especially not with Zenos of all people at the helm and it being plunged into its... 2nd Civil war in a very short time-frame. Really, the last thing any of them want is for Garlemald to cease to exist as a political/cultural entity. Because then there's nowhere for them to go again and it is a fact that until the Garlean Republic was formed... all of Garlean history is about them being chased from one place to another. Until they were pushed so far north there wasn't any more land for them to run to and that's where they finally made their stand and established their nation. And yet people still kept trying to push them out.

Now, how a transition from the current-day Garlemald to whatever comes next is going to go... someone's going to have to take charge somehow who wants a transition to happen that everyone is going to want to listen too. And they probably aren't going to be able to make that happen without the use/threat of force in some kind of way. Military force has been the main deciding factor in Garlean politics for... the last 60 years or so. And the number of people we know of who would be up for that kind of role/job... are pretty thin on the ground.

[ObsidianFire]

Varis: Our homeland was plunged into civil war for your failure to name a successor. The edifice you so carefully constructed was but a hair's breadth from collapse!

Solus (Emet-Selch): Are you truly so naive? You thought me oblivious to the consequences? Of a departure so painstakingly timed?

Varis: ...It was by design!?

Solus (Emet-Selch): But of course it was! Though I will admit the resulting panic exceeded even my wildest expectations. But how can you be surprised? Throwing the world into disarray was the very purpose for which this nation was, as you say, "so carefully constructed".

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Incidentally, the reason Emet-Selch doesn't posses Varis is because someone needs to head over to the 1st Shard to make sure it's still on track for a Rejoining when Black Rose goes off. And the Ascians looking over the 1st Shard are now dead... And why waste time possessing someone who has already been manipulated into doing what you want them to do. No one gets on Varis' nerves like Emet-Selch does.

[Kesey]

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Incidentally, the reason Emet-Selch doesn't posses Varis is because someone needs to head over to the 1st Shard to make sure it's still on track for a Rejoining when Black Rose goes off. And the Ascians looking over the 1st Shard are now dead... And why waste time possessing someone who has already been manipulated into doing what you want them to do. No one gets on Varis' nerves like Emet-Selch does.

Emet specifically mentions in the throne room that another opportunity has presented itself, which was the WOL going to the first, potentially absorbing the light wardens and either becoming a light warden themself allowing for a rejoining or overcoming the light wardens and in the process retake the seat of Azem and becoming an Ascian. Remember the real thing that disgusts Emet in Shadowbringers is that the WOL just doesn't remember. In his scheming mind it was a win-win because he couldn't foresee us averting the light warden problem by just remerging with Ardbert (who was ironically stopped from passing on to death by Minfilia-Hydaelyn), instead of ascending to Azem the Ascian.

I'm not sure we can read Emet's comments about humanity as his plan, its was more like surprise while I was scheming to get a rejoining by flood of light or my old friend Azem back, humans showed they were capable and stronger than I thought, but still not ultimately good enough.

[LineageRazor]

On the topic of whether Gaius's warmongering makes him "evil", it should be noted that he plainly believed that conquering the other lands was for the greater good. He felt that strong leaders were necessary to prevent "weak leaders from leading the people astray", and that conquest was a necessary evil in order to oust those weak leaders and to ensure that the peoples of those lands had a better tomorrow (under strong Garlean rule). He saw unneccesary slaughter, such as that caused by Meteor or Black Rose to be undesirable, albiet for pragmatic rather than humanitarian reasons. I definitely think this paints him as a man of grey morality, rather than black, and thus capable of redemption.

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

Somehow, though, Gaius has come to some kind of epiphany that Ascians popping out of the woodwork suddenly means everything he believed in is a lie. That just seems like too big a jump for me, too big a change to his character.

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Well, this isn't QUITE right. In both timelines, Gaius and crew are presumably destroying stockpiles, but the reason things go pear-shaped is because the Warrior of Light is participating fully in the war against the Garleans. The WoL's involvement pushes Varis so far into a corner that he unleashes the Black Rose - just in time for the First to flood into the Source with all its Umbrally-charged Aether.

In the saved timeline, this doesn't happen. The WoL is busy stablizing the First, and the Alliance-Garlean war is at a stalemate instead. Gaius also does not have Alphinaud to help destroy Black Rose, for whatever difference that makes.

The differences between the two timelines take place because of the Crystal Exarch's involvement, and his involvement basically involves removing the WoL and the Scions from the picture. Anything else, presumably, would have happened the same way in both timelines. If Gaius is destroying Black Rose in the saved timeline, he probably was also doing it in the doomed one. If he wasn't - why wasn't he? What change did the Exarch make to send him on a different path? And if it wasn't the Exarch, what else could have?

[Kesey]

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

But Gaius needs to WANT redemption to FIND redemption. And I'm pretty sure he finds that by spending time with the peoples he formerly wanted to conquer. You can also see the fights with the WOL that Gaius lost as moments that forced him to open his eyes, because by his logic if we beat him he isn't the rightful person to save and rule the people of the world.

[EliTheGunbreaker]

My beef, though, is that Gaius shouldn't WANT redemption, or even feel that he NEEDS redemption. The revelation that Ascians have been pulling the strings behind the scenes should not automatically make him back down from his ideals of a strong leader being necessary for the good of all. The Ascians need to be rooted out of Garlemald, that goes without saying, but after the job is done he should be all about setting Garlemald back on its path of conquest. The strong should still govern the weak, after all, and the Ascians aren't responsible for the Eorzean leaders weak-willed insistence on continuing the worship of the Twelve. (Or maybe it is - all the more reason to step in and take control!) Ascian corruption and the proliferation of weak Eikon-loving rulers are two seperate problems, and both need to be solved.

While I do agree that the Ascians alone wouldn't be enough for him to want change, for him to want it, he has to realize that what he did was not a good thing. I do feel like this is the issue Werlyt attempts to tackle. Him coming to terms that a lot of destruction is not just the Ascians, but also his fault. As Kesey said, he has to see the lives of people that used to be below him, from a much closer perspective. Alas, the writing of it is pretty heavy-handed, which is what makes me sad, hence my original post.

Somehow, though, Gaius has come to some kind of epiphany that Ascians popping out of the woodwork suddenly means everything he believed in is a lie. That just seems like too big a jump for me, too big a change to his character.

Nowhere has it been stated that he had a big realization prior to Werlyt. The way it looked like to me, he went on a personal vendetta because of a grudge, which is not an evil thing on it's own, but not a good thing either. More like... He became more cooperable due to both this and the sheer unlikeliness that people would accept him back in Garlemald again. That being said... The idea that one's entire philosophy and set of morals were actually created by someone else to exploit everyone, him included, was a possible prompt for self-reflection. This is another thing I would like explored closely. His relationship with Solus, his image of him and how the revelation that a figure he was so close to ended up to be the very thing he hates, with Garlemald's entire ideology built to just sow more chaos. That and the realization that he is actually to blame for a lot of things could prompt a redemption arc in the future. If things go the way I hope.

My problem is... All of these should have been smoother, more logical and conclusive. They didn't have to make him oblivious to everything he's done, or to make Cid go soft on him. Sometimes realizations are not done in one night. What I wanted is for it to be a gradual process of "yes, I see I've been guilty" instead of "I am surprised all of this was done right under my nose because apparently I have no idea what is going on". In an attempt to take the blame off him, they made his characterization less believable in the process, and now I just hope he survives Werlyt without any shitty betrayal plot twists, maybe something can be done afterwards.