Question for those who didn't pick up AST til 5.0 or after.

[ItMe]

While I get the whole reversal purpose of a statement like this (and it does work in a lot of instances), I find the argument a bit flawed here as it’s coming from someone who didn’t enjoy a job that effectively existed the same for 4 years, but now does after it was radically changed. How is it really fair to tell original AST mains—mains that played the original iteration of the job, either from HW or SB—to “just go play something else” because (general) you now find it fun after it was drastically altered? Seems a bit unfair to the original ASTs that enjoyed the job as it was originally designed, and even more so that stuck with it through the dark days of early HW where literally no one wanted AST in their parties.

You're right, but they're no more obligated to the job than I am.
They enjoyed the original design, but so what? That doesn't make their perspective more legitimate.
It's no more fair to tell them to play something else than it is to vaguely blame the rest of us for ruining "their" job.

[HyoMinPark]

You're right, but they're no more obligated to the job than I am.
They enjoyed the original design, but so what? That doesn't make their perspective more legitimate.
It's no more fair to tell them to play something else than it is to vaguely blame the rest of us for ruining "their" job.

I personally didn’t see any vague blame when it came to Garten’s statement—he was mostly just stating something most newer ASTs/ShB AST fans say: “I like AST now because I hated the RNG in HW/SB”. Which, fine. They are completely entitled to have that opinion—but he is right in saying that there were two RNG-free healers readily available.

Personally, I would disagree and say that players that have been playing a job for longer likely have more weight to their opinions because they have been actively playing the job. They know the job. Perhaps they even optimize/min-max on it. I truly think that the developers should listen more to them rather than the players that don’t actively play the jobs when it comes to job adjustments and feedback. It would be like me, who is not a DRK main, coming in and demanding the developers change the job into what I want it to be, and completely ignore the people who actually love and play DRK—and then subsequently telling them that they aren’t entitled to tell me to just go play something else that more suits my tastes instead of asking their job to be changed into what I want. I don’t offer feedback on roles that I don’t play simply because it’s not really my place, and I don’t think developers should take my opinions into consideration being as that I don’t play the job I’m offering opinions on (and I don’t think I could form a thorough opinion on it anyways).

People are allowed to give feedback. But I think the developers should listen more to those who actively play the jobs rather than the ones who don’t, or who just play it on occasion. And this is for more than just AST; it’s for all jobs in general.

[ItMe]

Personally, I would disagree and say that players that have been playing a job for longer likely have more weight to their opinions because they have been actively playing the job. They know the job. Perhaps they even optimize/min-max on it. I truly think that the developers should listen more to them rather than the players that don’t actively play the jobs when it comes to job adjustments and feedback.

In general, yes. For balance, yes.
In this case it's not relevant.
Just because you enjoyed the first version of this class doesn't mean you're entitled to love every version of the class or SQEX is being bad. You don't get some higher say in what's fun just because you dug the prototype. Hence my comment about how (in this case of people whining about the RNG) your "seniority" with the class doesn't elevate your perspective. SQEX wanted to change the job. They changed it to something someone doesn't like. That's unfortunate. But I'm as tired of people whining about ShB AST as they are tired of people whining about the RNG. I don't know what it is about that comment in particular that caused me to flip, but their "pick a different job if you don't like it" really got under my skin. I didnt like it in Stormblood, so I did play something else. I rocked SCH. I'm sorry we both can't have fun now but if you don't like it now, don't make yourself miserable and consider taking your own advice.

[ForteNightshade]

In general, yes. For balance, yes.
In this case it's not relevant.
Just because you enjoyed the first version of this class doesn't mean you're entitled to love every version of the class or SQEX is being bad. You don't get some higher say in what's fun just because you dug the prototype. Hence my comment about how (in this case of people whining about the RNG) your "seniority" with the class doesn't elevate your perspective. SQEX wanted to change the job. They changed it to something someone doesn't like. That's unfortunate. But I'm as tired of people whining about ShB AST as they are tired of people whining about the RNG. I don't know what it is about that comment in particular that caused me to flip, but their "pick a different job if you don't like it" really got under my skin. I didnt like it in Stormblood, so I did play something else. I rocked SCH. I'm sorry we both can't have fun now but if you don't like it now, don't make yourself miserable and consider taking your own advice.

Yes, you do. At least to an extent. The whole point of offering feedback is veteran players have the perspective to make comparisons. Long time Astros can reference what the job used to be like; why they enjoyed it and how current decisions have hurt or completely ruined the enjoyment they once had. If you're only just starting out on the job, or didn't invest much time into it. You can still offer your thoughts on why you disliked it, but your opinion shouldn't be weighed as heavily. Frankly, this has been one of the major issues of Shadowbringer's job design, in my opinion. The dev team prioritized accessibility and attracting new players to each job instead of focusing what made the job enjoyable to its current playerbase. Such is why we've seen such enormous backlash towards healers since launch, and why a job like Bard went from arguably the most popular DPS to the second least.

Many people did follow their own advice. Which is why Monk saw immediate panic buffs and a subsequent overhaul, Bard has seen changes nearly every patch and Astro remains divisive. Basically, the devs had to/still are fixing mistakes due to the fact their changes turned away more players than it brought in. In another words, you may like current Astro's card system. A lot more don't.

[ItMe]

Yes, you do. At least to an extent. The whole point of offering feedback is veteran players have the perspective to make comparisons. Long time Astros can reference what the job used to be like; why they enjoyed it and how current decisions have hurt or completely ruined the enjoyment they once had. If you're only just starting out on the job, or didn't invest much time into it. You can still offer your thoughts on why you disliked it, but your opinion shouldn't be weighed as heavily.

I'm sorry but i believe no player has a larger say in "what's fun" than another.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
If you really wanna have that discussion, I'd argue that having a history with the job, if anything, might blind you somewhat to what it's really like now, as your baggage can prevent you from seeing it AS IS as opposed to someone who sees this version of the job without the past coloring their perspective. They've still had a whole expac of time with the job and if that's not enough then nothing can be.

Frankly, this has been one of the major issues of Shadowbringer's job design, in my opinion. The dev team prioritized accessibility and attracting new players to each job instead of focusing what made the job enjoyable to its current playerbase. Such is why we've seen such enormous backlash towards healers since launch, and why a job like Bard went from arguably the most popular DPS to the second least.

Additionally you might just be shouting into the wind as far as SQEX is concerned. They don't care who is a vet of what job either, they're a business. If they design B will ultimately please more customers han design A... they're going with design B.
Not that this is right... but to expect different is to court disappointment.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm sorry but i believe no player has a larger say in "what's fun" than another.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
If you really wanna have that discussion, I'd argue that having a history with the job, if anything, might blind you somewhat to what it's really like now, as your baggage can prevent you from seeing it AS IS as opposed to someone who sees this version of the job without the past coloring their perspective. They've still had a whole expac of time with the job and if that's not enough then nothing can be.

That argument posits that veteran players of any job cannot be objective in their criticism and only hate change for change's sake. While there are certainly people like that, you can typically parse their arguments pretty easily. Either way, yes, we shall have to agree to disagree because I think priority on job appeasement should go towards the core audience job first before trying to attract a hopeful new crop of players. That isn't to say you can't do both, but the focus shouldn't be on "how can we get more players to try Astro?" but rather "How can we improve Astro for those who enjoy it while also attracting new players to the job?" If, for whatever reason, you aren't able to do both. Priority should be on retaining core players because you risk driving them away—which is exactly what happened this expansion.

Additionally you might just be shouting into the wind as far as SQEX is concerned. They don't care who is a vet of what job either, they're a business. If they design B will ultimately please more customers han design A... they're going with design B.
Not that this is right... but to expect different is to court disappointment.

While, yes. That was more or less my point. The irony is the devs didn't follow that philosophy. Take Bard, for example. Not only was it arguably the most popular DPS in the entire game, it was near universally praised as the best iteration of the job. So... why change it at all? There's literally zero incentive to gut the job except some odd belief only one Physical Range can be support focused. What makes their decision worse is they already tried overhauling Bard once before: the dreaded Bowman. Which was loathed to the point they had to completely overhaul the job again come Stormblood. It should have been obvious taking away Bard's support and utility aspects wouldn't "please more customers" yet they did it anyway. And have since spent most of Shadowbringers either giving it back in small amounts or buffing Bard's overall potency due to the once immensely popular job being the second least desired DPS outside Monk.

[ItMe]

That argument posits that veteran players of any job cannot be objective in their criticism and only hate change for change's sake.

... what??
The argument posits that if two groups are trying to measure a job, the one with a colored perspective will have a skewed perspective, and the one without can potentially be more objective based on what is being measured.
I have no idea where you got that stuff about hating change.
I'm also just addressing this to correct the record. The initial comment was tangential to the main issue, which I believe you touch on best here:

I think priority on job appeasement should go towards the core audience job first before trying to attract a hopeful new crop of players.

I agree.
100%
The problem is the question is literally "do you enjoy it." One person having played through more versions of AST doesn't make their opinion weigh more when the question is "do you enjoy it."
Saying seniors opinions have more weight is not only inappropriate to the topic, it's especially inappropriate in a thread asking those who didn't pick up AST til 5.0 or after what they think of the job.

On that note, I would like to apologize for pretty thoroughly derailing this thread.

[Liam_Harper]

But I think the developers should listen more to those who actively play the jobs rather than the ones who don’t, or who just play it on occasion. And this is for more than just AST; it’s for all jobs in general.

Agreed.

I like the current AST, but honestly I'm a WhM main and the class shouldn't be designed for me. I've been rather against Enix's mentality this expansion of ripping classes, features and content away from players who really loved those things and trying to hand them over to people who didn't really have much interest in them. The whole point of multiple classes is to offer a variety of different playstyles so there's something for everyone. Watering them all down and trying to cater to the same vague majority doesn't actually please a wider target audience. It's flawed logic because you're only covering that one playstyle.

If there really were people who enjoyed the old AST, they should be working with them rather than tossing them aside. The vague casual majority doesn't need every class and feature in the game.

[Seraphor]

Agreed.

I like the current AST, but honestly I'm a WhM main and the class shouldn't be designed for me. I've been rather against Enix's mentality this expansion of ripping classes, features and content away from players who really loved those things and trying to hand them over to people who didn't really have much interest in them. The whole point of multiple classes is to offer a variety of different playstyles so there's something for everyone. Watering them all down and trying to cater to the same vague majority doesn't actually please a wider target audience. It's flawed logic because you're only covering that one playstyle.

If there really were people who enjoyed the old AST, they should be working with them rather than tossing them aside. The vague casual majority doesn't need every class and feature in the game.

It wasn't really about catering to a certain playstyle though, it was about balance.
They realised that Bole and Ewer didn't belong in an RNG system, we all knew something needed to be done about Spire (and they ended up removing TP altogether so you cant blame that one on AST playstyle). In addition, they generally removed crit buffs anyway (MNK and BRD both had their crit procs removed) not just on AST, so there was clearly an overall balancing job being done. Most likely because of the way crit scales throughout an expansion, and how speed buffs are either loved or despised depending on the job.

Ultimately, changing the effects of cards isn't something that drastically affects the playstyle of the job. Cards still do the same thing, you draw a card at random, you have to make a conscious choice as to where that card goes, and then you put it there. The choices have changed to be much simpler, but the action has not.
AST is still the healer with the shortest cast times, the largest weaving windows, the most APM, it still does both shields and regens (better) so the playstyle is largely the same.
The complaint about the card effects falls more into the realm of job fantasy, flavour and lore.

[Ceasaria]

so the playstyle is largely the same.

No, the changes made to cards and the removal of Time Abilities and other changes have deeply altered the playstyle.
It has been told many times by old AST (who played and cared a lot).