DPS stressors vs. Mitigation stressors

[Satarn]

There is a difference between "this mechanic needs X players alive to complete" which is consistent through each attempt and "having the boss 1/2y north of the intended position or canted by 5 degrees to either side will cause the safespots use to dodge the floor AoEs to be smaller or in different spots" which can mean the strategy used to handle the mechanic is not consistent.

Having the boss out of certain tolerable position leading to a wipe is just as consistent. Positioning the boss is a part of the mechanic, just like having everybody there execute their parts of it correctly. If the boss is not positioned, that's a tank's screw-up, just like somebody dying right before the mechanic is a screw-up on either said person(if they died to an avoidable oneshot) or the healers if they failed to keep them alive. You saying that one screw-up is different from the other is just completely arbitrary.

Wait, are you saying that SE wants us to always only use their one strat and if we don't they consider it a failure on their part? That's not only contradictory to what Yoshi P's been saying, but also makes no sense at all, considering every single fight has at least two strats for it - trying to prevent that would be plain asinine.
The things SE "lets slide but tries to prevent from happening again" aren't generally tied to boss positioning anyways - it's dumb crap like WAR soloing wagons in o5s, or all sorts of tank LB cheesing, so boss teleporting and getting locked in is hardly preventing that. Hell, the bosses aren't even always locked through the entire thing - you can totally have Shiva move between casts during LR because tank did something weird, so there's your "consistency".

[Ultimatecalibur]

Having the boss out of certain tolerable position leading to a wipe is just as consistent. Positioning the boss is a part of the mechanic, just like having everybody there execute their parts of it correctly. If the boss is not positioned, that's a tank's screw-up, just like somebody dying right before the mechanic is a screw-up on either said person(if they died to an avoidable oneshot) or the healers if they failed to keep them alive. You saying that one screw-up is different from the other is just completely arbitrary.

The difference is the precision needed for things to be consistent. FFXIV is not a game that works if you need to be bullet hell precise in your positioning to dodge attacks.

Wait, are you saying that SE wants us to always only use their one strat and if we don't they consider it a failure on their part? That's not only contradictory to what Yoshi P's been saying, but also makes no sense at all, considering every single fight has at least two strats for it - trying to prevent that would be plain asinine.

SE has intended strats for fights and does consider it a minor failure when dev oversight leads to players developing alternative strategies to handle mechanics. They just do not punish the playerbase for developing those strats by modifying the existing fights. This is unlike what other MMO dev teams have done in the past.

The things SE "lets slide but tries to prevent from happening again" aren't generally tied to boss positioning anyways - it's dumb crap like WAR soloing wagons in o5s, or all sorts of tank LB cheesing, so boss teleporting and getting locked in is hardly preventing that.

We figure out how to dodge dive bombs in T5 by making them dive out of the arena? Targeted Dive bombs in future fights originate from outside the arena so that we can't dodge them that way. Tanking a boss a the edge of the arena creates a larger or smaller safe area than intended (which happened a lot in ARR)? Future bosses recenter themselves regularly before and after major attacks.

A lot of things in the current design formula are that way to prevent several of the emergent strategies that appeared in earlier fights.

Hell, the bosses aren't even always locked through the entire thing - you can totally have Shiva move between casts during LR because tank did something weird, so there's your "consistency".

Which is fine in SE's opinion as long as the mechanic is starting from a consistent point and the intended strategy limits boss movement.

[Satarn]

SE has intended strats for fights and does consider it a minor failure when dev oversight leads to players developing alternative strategies to handle mechanics

Citation needed. You're basically suggesting that FFXIV fight design team is a bunch of actual lunatics, trying to achieve impossible just to limit player freedom(different strats) and essentially make a worse mmo(since developing strats is an important part of raiding). I mean they can do some weird, incompetent shit sometimes imo, but even I think that's a stretch.

(which happened a lot in ARR)? Future bosses recenter themselves regularly before and after major attacks.

Except it's not really something that's suddenly shifted post T5 or even ARR - we still used to have tons of fights and major, complex mechanics without the forcible teleporting before SHB, whole three expansions later. Doesn't seem like very logical cause and effect, does it?

A lot of things in the current design formula are that way to prevent several of the emergent strategies that appeared in earlier fights.

Yes, absolutely, never argued with that. Just that the current saturation of bosses teleporting isn't necessarily really part of that prevention and more likely just a way to make things easier because "oh no, nobody will play support roles if they're even remotely hard" - a more likely correlation, given that everything about tanking has been made easier this expac.
Also that the strategies they try to prevent aren't "all different strategies"(since again - that would be plain insanity) - just ones that really cheese things into pointlessness. Devs don't care if you're doing Ilya or Bowtie LR, but they do care if you can just toss a tank LB3 and completely skip doing the mechanic, like red fists in o11s.

[Lyth]

The position locks and movement jank were not deliberately designed to allow for bullet hell level dodging. Let's not excuse lazy game design. It's not like FFXIV is the only game that makes you dodge AoEs. Most of the time, "north" is just whichever direction the boss is facing.

Positioning is not an all or nothing check designed specifically to cause wipes. It's how good tanks set up your team to do more damage. It's about optimization.

Your melee is on an add. They then rotate off onto the boss without losing a single GCD. Why? Because your tank placed them there. Your team has to move to a safe zone. Everyone gets there without losing a GCD on the boss. Why? Because the tank backstepped the boss in a timely fashion instead of booking it to safety. Your caster doesn't want to move for the next mechanic. They don't have to. Why? Because your tank repositioned the boss such that they are now in a safe zone. The ideal tank is the ultimate facilitator. You set up fights to allow your dps to do their job more effectively. You mitigate damage to ease the burden on your healers. You rescue/shield misplaced teammates from certain death. You push your dps to compensate for underperforming teammates. And sometimes, just sometimes, you solo the boss down the last few percent as the last player alive, with your entire team cheering you on. You are the carry. Anything less than this isn't real tanking.

If you want tanks, tanking needs to feel relevant again.

[Kabooa]

If you want tanks, tanking needs to feel relevant again.

Why even have the other roles with that blurb?

Just make everyone tanks.

You know. Like Bozja lets you do.

[Lyth]

Why would I dare to offer the opinion that tanks need to feel relevant again?

1) I enjoy tanking. The fun in tanking comes from being the anchor on which the rest of your team relies on to perform at their best. This is how you get people to tank.
2) I previously enjoyed tanking in this game. The devs have made a series of progressive changes to make tanking more 'accessible', but they've done so by systematically eroding into our ability to contribute to our team.
3) Most people play dps anyways, and it's the highest impact role in spite of this. Anyone with a even a sliver of common sense knows that addressing tank and healer discontent needs to be the focus in the next expansion.
4) This is the tank forums, not the black mage forums.

[Kabooa]

4) This is the tank forums, not the black mage forums.

Hey, it's this old "Us vs them" you like trotting out.

I noticed it doesn't keep you out of the healer forums either.

[Satarn]

If you want tanks, tanking needs to feel relevant again.

Why even have the other roles with that blurb?

Just make everyone tanks.

You know. Like Bozja lets you do.

Huh, could've sworn that the trinity roles were "Tank, Healer and DPS", not "Tank, Relevant and Relevant 2".

Shucks, guess I've been wrong all these years I've played mmos.

[Kabooa]

Huh, could've sworn that the trinity roles were "Tank, Healer and DPS", not "Tank, Relevant and Relevant 2".

Shucks, guess I've been wrong all these years I've played mmos.

Tanks are so irrelevant, you're right. It definitely isn't healers who get dumped before them.

[Satarn]

Tanks are so irrelevant, you're right. It definitely isn't healers who get dumped before them.

They're both in the shitter, dummy. Partly in ways which are directly intertwined between the roles - I've been saying as much over and over since 5.0's launch, including in this very thread.

However you're the one who said that giving tanks actual relevance would make all other roles pointless somehow, because you just gotta post "snappy", dismissive hot takes whenever anyone voices any discontent with the state of things.