New Content Suggestion: Unreal Dungeons

[Theodric]

I'd be all for it. I'd rather do an unreal dungeon than an unreal trial.

[Ultimatecalibur]

People can barely tolerate dungeons taking more than 17 minutes, let alone a full-on run against mobs scaled to your actual gear. But on a serious note though, if anyone is BiS on any patch level, then the chances are the dungeon won't really sate their hunger. Dungeons aren't really something to get excited about.

The complaints about dungeons being braindead and "big pull and AoE down" meta are both more or less a result of how much we outgear dungeons at release. The average active player tends to outgear expert dungeons by about 30 to 40 ilevels at their release and end the patch cycle as much as 60 to 70 ilevels over. Dungeons that you start out 10 ilevels undergeared and end the patch only 10 to 20 ilevels over would be a significant change.

I also suggested dungeons that have interest and/or unusual mechanics in the areas between bosses. Can you save all the goblins before the dragons kill them? Dodge and escape the giant invincible killer Tonberries? Will you use the terain traps to speed up killing the trash packs? These are mechanics that make dungeons more than wall to wall corridor pulls.

[Morningstar1337]

People can barely tolerate dungeons taking more than 17 minutes, let alone a full-on run against mobs scaled to your actual gear. But on a serious note though, if anyone is BiS on any patch level, then the chances are the dungeon won't really sate their hunger. Dungeons aren't really something to get excited about.

1. Its likely gonna be on a weekly lockout over a daily one, so I'd think it'd be something people can make time for (since they're not expected to farm it or run it ad nauseum). 2. As the above post (which turns out is also a response) mentions the reason for the boredom is it being overgeared on arrival (By design. Leveling dungeons and Auamrot are relatively stricter), which a ilevel sync to AF level would address.

Plus they could also spice up the rewards on a weekly lockout beyond just the privilege to play Faux Hollows, For example a special universal mats used to craft unlocked (and maybe even dyeable) versions of the original dungeon's gear (with new recipes being added instead of replacing older ones)

For example for the Vault Unreal you would get a mat called "Mnemosyte" which would be used for unlocked dyeable versions of the Dungeon gear (which does have dyeable counterparts as crafted gear of the same level, but are restricted by Role lines). The models for said dungeon gear were already made generic but undyeable in the Heavens' Ward cosplay Set. Later a patch would change it to Sirensong Sea but it would still drop the Mnemosyte and add recipes for unlocked versions of the Ghost Baroque gear that woudne't replace the Halonic replicas. Any Weapons would instead of being updated would have a more subtle glowey effect to their accents,like the Elemental+1 Armor

Woudne't work for all dungeons (some designs are generic or lackluster even before they changed the Aetherial lefthand gear, and some like SHB's first l80 dungeon don't reward armor or Accs,...then there's cases like ARF), but its a good start if you fear Faux Hollows alone wont get people queuing for them.

[Kaurhz]

The complaints about dungeons being braindead and "big pull and AoE down" meta are both more or less a result of how much we outgear dungeons at release. The average active player tends to outgear expert dungeons by about 30 to 40 ilevels at their release and end the patch cycle as much as 60 to 70 ilevels over. Dungeons that you start out 10 ilevels undergeared and end the patch only 10 to 20 ilevels over would be a significant change.

I also suggested dungeons that have interest and/or unusual mechanics in the areas between bosses. Can you save all the goblins before the dragons kill them? Dodge and escape the giant invincible killer Tonberries? Will you use the terain traps to speed up killing the trash packs? These are mechanics that make dungeons more than wall to wall corridor pulls.

It certainly doesn't help with the matter that we outgear them, no, but that isn't really the point, dungeons don't exactly provide a lot of challenges in the first place, especially if you manage to make BiS for a current tier, whether you do or don't incratorpoe unique challenges or points of interest, there's only really so far you can go with a dungeon without adding on a lot of development time. I feel the nr would ovelty factowear down fast before it simply becomes but another weekly chore irrespective of what challenges you may incorporate. Granted, it would give a use to those that are already in Best-in-slot, or near the effective gear cap, but if they're going to add something which necessitates Best-in-Slot, certainly would be nice if that content reflected the expected competency, for example, a savage encounter upscaled.

The beauty of Unreal trials is that it can take a significant time to complete them, even going as far as a couple of lockouts for the average player and very little in the leeway for errors, a dungeon on the other hand I just don't see the enjoyment factor being there, personally.

Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting idea, I just personally think the novelty factor for players would wear down pretty fast before it becomes simply another chore.

[Absurdity]

LOL

People can barely tolerate dungeons taking more than 17 minutes, let alone a full-on run against mobs scaled to your actual gear. But on a serious note though, if anyone is BiS on any patch level, then the chances are the dungeon won't really sate their hunger. Dungeons aren't really something to get excited about.

I don't think that applies in this case. The reason people can't stand dungeons taking longer than 15-20 minutes is because of how boring they are, nothing in the endgame dungeons is in any way threatening or even remotely complicated, they're an absolute snoozefest. I would have no issue with dungeons taking longer if they actually challenge more than my ability to not fall asleep.



Best example for this being the case are the deep dungeons on the last 30 floors. Their design is pretty similar to normal dungeons, a bunch of rooms connected by straight corridors with a boss at the end. Unlike any expert dungeons however you barely even notice how long those 10 floors take because it actually challenges your party in various ways, often at the same time, along the way. Dealing with traps, high incoming tank damage, enemy mechanics, floor debuffs, collecting as much treasure as possible, all while racing against the clock to finish the boss in time.

[Jojoya]

Considering the reasons they gave us for only having one Unreal trial a patch, I doubt this will happen for dungeons.

I don't think that applies in this case. The reason people can't stand dungeons taking longer than 15-20 minutes is because of how boring they are, nothing in the endgame dungeons is in any way threatening or even remotely complicated, they're an absolute snoozefest.

Players aren't thinking about how interesting (or not) a dungeon is. Anything gets boring after you've repeated it several times.

What they're really thinking about is loot and what they need to do to get more of it in whatever time they have available to play.

When the reward is the same regardless of how much time is spent in the dungeon, it's natural to want to get it over and done with as fast as possible so the player can move onto the next piece of content and the next reward.

Make a dungeon too annoying without increasing the reward to compensate and players will simply avoid the dungeon in favor of other dungeons that are more efficient when it comes to loot rewarded for time spent.

[Ultimatecalibur]

It certainly doesn't help with the matter that we outgear them, no, but that isn't really the point, dungeons don't exactly provide a lot of challenges in the first place, especially if you manage to make BiS for a current tier, whether you do or don't incratorpoe unique challenges or points of interest, there's only really so far you can go with a dungeon without adding on a lot of development time. I feel the nr would ovelty factowear down fast before it simply becomes but another weekly chore irrespective of what challenges you may incorporate. Granted, it would give a use to those that are already in Best-in-slot, or near the effective gear cap, but if they're going to add something which necessitates Best-in-Slot, certainly would be nice if that content reflected the expected competency, for example, a savage encounter upscaled.

A savage encounter upscale is only going to intrigue a small percentage of the player base and that playerbase is already served better by the Ultimate trials. Unreal dungeons would be targeted more towards the "midcore" playerbase that ends each patch cycle in non-BiS Augmented Tomestone rather than the "hardcore" Savage raider who ends even numbered patches with Savage on farm.

The beauty of Unreal trials is that it can take a significant time to complete them, even going as far as a couple of lockouts for the average player and very little in the leeway for errors, a dungeon on the other hand I just don't see the enjoyment factor being there, personally.

Shiva Unreal only takes a significant amount of time to complete on average because the vast majority of currently active players never did Shiva Ex on release and therefore never actually learned it. The primary goal of the Unreal series is to let the new players experience the classic Trials as current content. Upscale a more resent trial (such as Suzaku) and completion rate would be much higher and faster as the average player would be more familiar with the fight.

Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting idea, I just personally think the novelty factor for players would wear down pretty fast before it becomes simply another chore.

Considering that each Unreal dungeon would only have about a 3 month lifespan getting sick of it would be far less of a factor compared to doing the same Expert dungeon you have overgeared for 6 months in a row.

[linayar]

Ilevel:

• Min - Augmented uncapped Tomestone gear/last cycle Savage gear for even patches and Normal Mode Raid/New Crafted Gear for odd patches.
• Expected - Normal Mode Raid gear/New Crafted Gear for even patches and capped Tomestone/New Alliance Raid gear for odd patches.
• Max - Augmented Capped Tomestone/Current Savage gear.

I would prefer it to use the existing unreal sync of 435 rather than your system, but otherwise, I'm up for it, assuming I can just queue for it. Is any dungeon content ever something that you're expected to use the PF for in NA region?

[Kaurhz]

A savage encounter upscale is only going to intrigue a small percentage of the player base and that playerbase is already served better by the Ultimate trials. Unreal dungeons would be targeted more towards the "midcore" playerbase that ends each patch cycle in non-BiS Augmented Tomestone rather than the "hardcore" Savage raider who ends even numbered patches with Savage on farm.



Shiva Unreal only takes a significant amount of time to complete on average because the vast majority of currently active players never did Shiva Ex on release and therefore never actually learned it. The primary goal of the Unreal series is to let the new players experience the classic Trials as current content. Upscale a more resent trial (such as Suzaku) and completion rate would be much higher and faster as the average player would be more familiar with the fight.



Considering that each Unreal dungeon would only have about a 3 month lifespan getting sick of it would be far less of a factor compared to doing the same Expert dungeon you have overgeared for 6 months in a row.

Honestly, if you were going to incorporate unreal dungeons, it would probably be better to have the dungeons catered towards the iLv currently seen in Unreal primals, and then have Unreal trials act like that for those with higher iLv, perhaps it could even be implemented later on in the patch cycle and give players gear that is just a cut above the savage gear counterpart on a weekly-lockout, which would then give players a chance to then bridge the gap between 1 tier to the next without needing to go ham on crafted, but instead a cheaper and more viable alternative.

As the post above really, players won't care how interesting a dungeon is, it will fairly quickly turn into something that is a means to an end, so whether it is a 3 month, or 6-month lifespan, the result will be the same fairly quickly. Not caring about how good or interesting the dungeon is, and just instead wanting an in-out reward with very little tedium. I just don't see unreal dungeons attracting the same level of attention as what an unreal trial would.

People do the extreme trials for the challenge, to experience an encounter they otherwise hadn't experienced before, dungeons, on the other hand, is a means to an end for the vast majority of players so the amount of interest you'll actually build for the content itself without it being a monotonous weekly activity is already... Besides, if you're going to not lock it behind a modicum of standards then you will very quickly turn to have issues with it, especially if tanks join and don't use Cooldowns, or if DPS end up doing single-target damage on aoe packs.. That already sticks out like a sore thumb in overgeared dungeons, let alone on a nigh minimum item level dungeon. Lord could only imagine just how much worse people would be with their attitude when people don't play according to other peoples' standards

Hell a lot of people hated Amaurot alone just because it took so long, let alone an Amaurot that would take even longer

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

So another vote for Aurum Vale as the first Unreal dungeon?

Every dungeon on that list could be cool and fun....except Vale.
That Toxic Swamp can take a hike