Can we get a rework of healers for 6.0

[Gemina]

E8S is functionally impossible to clear (especially without BiS which many jobs need e8s clears to achieve) without healer dps so I'd pose the same question to you as I did with Gemina - do you think healer dps is factored into the equation or do you think the devs planned a fight to be impossible?

Neither. I think if healer DPS was factored in the fight would be impossible, but allow me to elaborate.

At this point, I wish I never even brought it up. When I do, it opens up Pandora's Box and brings us back to a time when the healer community was divided between two factions of healers. For some reason, people either think that I am condoning what has been determined to be inferior and lazy gameplay, or I am trying to invalidate their savage clears, or something else that is taken offensively. If anyone thinks this is the case, I assure you it is not.

I attribute the majority of those age old debates to one ability: Cleric Stance. It was the only justification heals-only healers had when it came to not DPSing. It's gone now, along with any excuse they can come up to not do it, as well as the push to get healers to DPS. I suggest we leave it that.

Going back to my initial statement, I have searched high and low looking for any kind of formula posted from the devs for the raids of today and have come up with squat. I don't want parsers of the recent raid tier. I would like an official statement. I know I am not going to get it, so what I have surmised is that no one really knows how the devs factor in the DPS. For the sake of fanning the flames, I am not going to call it "healer DPS" and instead just look at the overall DPS of all eight party members.

What I know is that if I wanted to make a fight impossible to clear, then I would simply take the rDPS of all eight players playing optimally and make the requirement higher than that. That is the only way I would answer yes to the question, "Do I think the fights are made to be impossible?" This is obviously not the case and one of very few things I can conclude using deductive reasoning. The closest thing after that is that as soon as the rDPS is higher than what it required to clear it, then it becomes clearable. It doesn't matter if this factor is 100k, 10k, 1k, 100, or even 1. Obviously, the lower the number, the tighter the DPS, and the more difficult it will be for players to clear it.

Taking that into mind, I can toss all kinds of different approaches to creating the encounter requirements. I can take six players playing optimally, the average of all 8 players, seven players playing optimally and add a certain %, all eight players playing optimally and subtracting a certain %. It really doesn't matter in terms of just making it clearable. With all that said, instead of saying healer DPS isn't factored in, I will just say not all of it is. Does that sit well with you?

[Veis_Alveare]

With all that said, instead of saying healer DPS isn't factored in, I will just say not all of it is. Does that sit well with you?

Of course not "all of it" is factored in. Even Ultimate isn't balanced around total perfection.

SE would never release a statement around this specifically because of the behaviors surrounding it. There are far too many lazy players who can't deal with the idea and so, to avoid conflict, its much easier to change the way dps is factored in behind closed doors and just not address it.

As long as you're able to acknowledge the math that says healer dps is literally part of the equation that's fine. They aren't balancing around optimal WHM dps any more than they are with BLM. Requiring actual perfection isn't feasible but if you want an e8s clear the devs have sent a clear message - no curebots.

[Gemina]

Of course not "all of it" is factored in. Even Ultimate isn't balanced around total perfection.

SE would never release a statement around the math that says healer dps is literally part of the equation that's fine. They aren't balancing around optimal WHM dps any more than they are with BLM. Requiring actual perfection isn't feasible but if you want an e8s clear the devs have sent a clear message - no curebots.

I never didn't acknowledge it. I just use an age old statement because it was the last one used regarding any kind of formula factoring raid damage, and people lose their minds. I am not going to take fault for everyone's overreaction and beating dead horses. All I was trying to do was mention a possible constriction with adding abilities mid-expansion. As for never releasing such a statement, that is your observation. I can accept that he would never release such a statement, again. It was him who said something along the lines of taking a certain amount of DPS (I can't remember if it is an average, what the testers are doing, or w/e) and reducing this number to about 80% of that.

I don't need logs for recent savage because I can't even clear Shiva Unreal on a healer without DPSing, and have quickly faulted myself when doing high-end duties if I derp somewhere in the fight and we miss enrage by <1%. Everything about this tells me that healer DPS is indeed factored into clears; however, this doesn't doesn't allow me to conclude that Yoshi's previous statement is no longer true, or never was.

My own thoughts are that SE likely didn't want players coming down on healers. It's almost like they treat healers the way an over-protective, overbearing mother does, so they said that their DPS when factoring checks was completely left out. Perhaps the number they reduce overall rDPS by to make it clearable is around what average healers put out, so they just went with it. I don't know. That's just guesswork based on my own observations.

[Veis_Alveare]

I never didn't acknowledge it. I just use an age old statement because it was the last one used regarding any kind of formula factoring raid damage, and people lose their minds. I am not going to take fault for everyone's overreaction and beating dead horses. All I was trying to do was mention a possible constriction with adding abilities mid-expansion. As for never releasing such a statement, that is your observation. I can accept that he would never release such a statement, again. It was him who said something along the lines of taking a certain amount of DPS (I can't remember if it is an average, what the testers are doing, or w/e) and reducing this number to about 80% of that.

I don't need logs for recent savage because I can't even clear Shiva Unreal on a healer without DPSing, and have quickly faulted myself when doing high-end duties if I derp somewhere in the fight and we miss enrage by <1%. Everything about this tells me that healer DPS is indeed factored into clears; however, this doesn't doesn't allow me to conclude that Yoshi's previous statement is no longer true, or never was.

My own thoughts are that SE likely didn't want players coming down on healers. It's almost like they treat healers the way an over-protective, overbearing mother does, so they said that their DPS when factoring checks was completely left out. Perhaps the number they reduce overall rDPS by to make it clearable is around what average healers put out, so they just went with it. I don't know. That's just guesswork based on my own observations.

Whether or not you want to take responsibility for bringing up a quote that old that is easily disproved is irrelevant. You brought up the quote and people corrected you, no one "lost their minds" as your attempt at blame shifting says.

So your own experience that doesn't allow you to clear much easier content without healer dps isn't weighted more in your mind than a six year old quote? And neither is mathematical proof that that quote is no longer true?

No one is stating that what he said was neverthe case. During the days of Cleric Stance and Accuracy melds I don't doubt that healer dps was disregarded when formulating enrage timers. It took far more skill to effectively dps back then. The bar is basically flat on the group now, all you need to do is manage to target an enemy and press a button.

If you can't see that the examples provided (in addition to your own experience) prove healer dps is factored into enrage calculation by now then there is no point in responding to you. It'd be like talking to a biblical creationist about evolution - sure, we can totally prove evolution but if someone just has blind faith in something the facts won't matter to them.

[ADVSS]

No one is stating that what he said was neverthe case. During the days of Cleric Stance and Accuracy melds I don't doubt that healer dps was disregarded when formulating enrage timers. It took far more skill to effectively dps back then. The bar is basically flat on the group now, all you need to do is manage to target an enemy and press a button.

If you can't see that the examples provided (in addition to your own experience) prove healer dps is factored into enrage calculation by now then there is no point in responding to you. It'd be like talking to a biblical creationist about evolution - sure, we can totally prove evolution but if someone just has blind faith in something the facts won't matter to them.

Quick question, if i may?
SSS came out in response to? Is it impossible for healers to enter? Because I remember at the time the tank versions, were not very simple to beat (for alexander at the time), id assume the healer versions were pretty hard on the dps as well. Or, were healers simply not allowed to enter SSS?(i dunno i was all DRK go brrrr back then)Pretty simple to see that that was their intention, without having to speak a word about it to me. I mean call me crazy, but if they didnt expect healers to deal any damage they probably wouldnt have them enter SSS at all, since it was considered unnecessary.
Still think it was a terrible implementation of a "self parser/dps meter" but eh, thats my opinion.