Can we get a rework of healers for 6.0

[Gemina]

The source is false. It's been mathematically calculated and proven many times that healer dps is essential on Savage fights.
Shiva Savage has a raid dps requirement of 106k. The top world speed kills only have 102-104k if you remove their healer dps. It is not intended that tanks and dps play at 100th percentile in a perfect parse comp with BiS gear and lucky crit rate to clear the tier, while healers drool over the keyboard.

It doesn't matter if Yoshi said 2 + 2 = 5 in the past, that doesn't make it fact. Sometimes devs are wrong. It happens all the time.

Do you see what you did there? If a raid has a DPS requirement of 106k, and the top speed kills are doing 102-104k, how the hell are they even clearing it at all? Who exactly is saying 2+2=5 here?

Indeed devs are wrong and mistakes all the time. That's redundant though. If the devs say healer DPS is not factored when it actually is, it doesn't make them wrong; it makes them liars.

[Veis_Alveare]

Do you see what you did there? If a raid has a DPS requirement of 106k, and the top speed kills are doing 102-104k, how the hell are they even clearing it at all? Who exactly is saying 2+2=5 here?

Indeed devs are wrong and mistakes all the time. That's redundant though. If the devs say healer DPS is not factored when it actually is, it doesn't make them wrong; it makes them liars.

If you read before responding those groups have 102-104k if you subtract their healer dps so healer dps is literally how they clear.

Either your expectation is that SE designed e8s to necessitate perfection + perfect crit luck to clear (because that's what you'd need before even managing to get BiS which you'd need to clear the fight to do) or you can admit that at this point healer dps is required to clear.

[Gemina]

I assume this won't get a rebuttal, at least nothing meaningful about how you just proved "hey a quote from 2014 is irrelevant now" with math, but I wanted to say good job.

I find I amusing that people hol so dearly to that old quote just to white knight bad healers but we don't talk about things like Yoshida assuring us FC and player housing would be separate.

Like... guys, it's pretty clear at this point not everything this man says is truthful forever. In 2014 I bet they didn't balance fights with healer dps in mind. In 2014 we also had accuracy melds and Cleric Stance plus we lacked the freaking armada of instant/oGCD heals that we have now. Things were in a different place compared to now, dpsing as a healer was far more of a skill-based thing. Now Glare mage go brrr.

That's what you get for assuming, because I just rebutted it.

I will say one last time that this is not an argument to give lazy healers a pass. If you think that's what I am doing then just bow out. You clearly allow some kind of pride, or inflated ego to cloud the points I am trying to get across. I mean hell, you're bringing up the ludicrous housing system in order to make a point.

If the healer DPS factor has changed since 2014, then I would like to know when. Anyone?.... Anyone?

If you read before responding those groups have 102-104k if you subtract their healer dps so healer dps is literally how they clear.

Either your expectation is that SE designed e8s to necessitate perfection + perfect crit luck to clear (because that's what you'd need before even managing to get BiS which you'd need to clear the fight to do) or you can admit that at this point healer dps is required to clear.

I have already admitted that my own DPS as healer has been required to clear high end duties. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Veis_Alveare]

That's what you get for assuming, because I just rebutted it.

I will say one last time that this is not an argument to give lazy healers a pass. If you think that's what I am doing then just bow out. You clearly allow some kind of pride, or inflated ego to cloud the points I am trying to get across. I mean hell, you're bringing up the ludicrous housing system in order to make a point.

If the healer DPS factor has changed since 2014, then I would like to know when. Anyone?.... Anyone?

Like I've already pointed out you entirely failed to rebut it because you either didn't read or didn't understand what you were reading.

The 102-104k number is after subtracting their healer dps.

Meaning the best players in the world don't clear without healer dps.

[Gemina]

Like I've already pointed out you entirely failed to rebut it because you either didn't read or didn't understand what you were reading.

The 102-104k number is after subtracting their healer dps.

Meaning the best players in the world don't clear without healer dps.

Cool. I am still waiting though. By chance have a video of an E8S DPS check failure despite all players other than healers being in the upper percentile? If perfection and timely crits are what's needed, that is fine. Healer DPS then becomes extremely helpful to get these clears despite not everything being perfect. I know players are not perfect, and the devs do too. Why the hell do you think they leave their DPS out of the equation? It give the players some leeway to actually clear the damn fight.

[Kurando]

I find it interesting everytime someone wants WHM to get back Stone or Wind spells. Like I get it but based on the route the job is going, it seems to be moving away from elements and more towards holy/light effects (Glare, Dia, Lillies etc). Of course an aoe DOT or something to spread the current ones healer have would be nice (cross role action maybe?), but yeah OP's idea is a little whack, big no.

[Liam_Harper]

Cool. I am still waiting though. By chance have a video of an E8S DPS check failure despite all players other than healers being in the upper percentile? If perfection and timely crits are what's needed, that is fine.

It's very unlikely any such video exists, because even healbot Medica II spammers at sub-10th percentile who died several times are managing 5k+.

Let's take a comp of BLM, SAM, SMN, DNC, GNB and PLD along with an optimal dps Limit Break and check their rdps numbers at 99th percentile.
19.94k
19.86k
19.8k
18.6k
11.57k
11.3k
2.06k
TOTAL: 103.13

So even an entire perfect comp all playing pretty much flawlessly at the top of their game are about 3000 rdps short. This is at 500ilv with BiS in a fight aimed for 480ilv. It is literally impossible without the healers.

Keep in mind Stone Sky Sea evaluates healers on dps, healer class duties require dps, Hall of the Novice healer npc tells you to dps, Squadron healers deal dps, Trust healers deal dps, healers have dps abilities.

I know players are not perfect, and the devs do too. Why the hell do you think they leave their DPS out of the equation? It give the players some leeway to actually clear the damn fight.

Do you realize you're basically saying "the devs understand players aren't perfect and thus use healer dps to make up the leeway needed to realistically clear the fight"? That's the definition of using healer dps as part of the equation for enrage times. The moment healer dps is an important consideration in their fight design and intended difficulty, it's part of the equation.

[Veis_Alveare]

Cool. I am still waiting though. By chance have a video of an E8S DPS check failure despite all players other than healers being in the upper percentile? If perfection and timely crits are what's needed, that is fine. Healer DPS then becomes extremely helpful to get these clears despite not everything being perfect. I know players are not perfect, and the devs do too. Why the hell do you think they leave their DPS out of the equation? It give the players some leeway to actually clear the damn fight.

Go to the site we cant link here and click on e8s. Click on the first result. That is the fastest e8s recently meaning it was done in BiS gear. In BiS gear with the optimal composition the tanks and dps of that group (of the very best clear) would have failed without their healers dps.

E8s is functionally impossible without healer dps. How can you interpret that as anything but as healer dps being factored into the dps check?

The only other option is that e8s was meant to never be cleared... is that what you think?

[Semirhage]

I mean, is there an actual functional difference between
- The devs explicitly do the math to add healer DPS into rDPS to make sure that average total DPS can clear an encounter
- The devs use DPS and tank damage to set an encounter's HP, do some percentage screwery and hope healers doing damage plus some health reductions for suboptimal damage will make up for it

In one case they explicitly factor it in, in the other they know it's happening and...factor it in but less officially.

[Veis_Alveare]

I mean, is there an actual functional difference between
- The devs explicitly do the math to add healer DPS into rDPS to make sure that average total DPS can clear an encounter
- The devs use DPS and tank damage to set an encounter's HP, do some percentage screwery and hope healers doing damage plus some health reductions for suboptimal damage will make up for it

In one case they explicitly factor it in, in the other they know it's happening and...factor it in but less officially.

How is that not factoring it in?

If you do 3+3 to get 6 you've factored in two numbers.

If you do 2+2(2) you get 6 you've factored in 3 numbers.

I'm aware that the math for calculating boss HP/enrage timers is a bit more involved than that but if there is consideration for healer dps in the equation then healer dps is being factored in.

It is quite literally a black and white issue.

E8S is functionally impossible to clear (especially without BiS which many jobs need e8s clears to achieve) without healer dps so I'd pose the same question to you as I did with Gemina - do you think healer dps is factored into the equation or do you think the devs planned a fight to be impossible?