Can we get a rework of healers for 6.0

[Gemina]

I am quite sure reworking the healers and putting them back into PvE without upsetting certain balances in the game is a daunting task for the dev team. Since healer offense was never accounted for when creating DPS checks in the game along with having very few skills to do damage, giving them even one additional skill quickly changes the overall rDPS over the course of an 8-12 minute high-end encounter.

That is why such changes can't come mid-expansion, because if they did that, they would have to balance out the DPS by taking it away elsewhere. The quickest place to go for that are the DPS jobs, who would then ask, "WTF Flare get nerfed yo?" They have added skills back in the past, and have even done it this expansion; but like I said, someone takes a hit somewhere. When SCH got Energy Drain back SMN got Tri-disaster nerfed soon after. While it was known at the time the SMN was OP, this wasn't really the reason why SE nerfed it. Shaving a little bit off the top didn't really change that job all that much. They will typically go to whichever job that is causing the most damage that is not BLM or SAM. From my observation anyway.

For casual content, meh. They can do whatever, and not much changes. Things might die a little quicker, so yay. But what we quickly have to take into mind is that when 6.0 hits, healer DPS output no matter how it comes will be pretty much be set in stone. They might make some tweaks, and add (back) a skill or two lol. A way around that is by adding in AoE skills since those skills are impractical to use on bosses. A positive result to that is that dungeons and other AoE situations become more fun to do, which will increase the amount of healers in those queues.

But yeah. I really don't think there is way the devs can continue to not allow healers to contribute more to the damage pool without the playerbase releasing the chimps to eat their faces.

[YusiKha]

Since healer offense was never accounted for when creating DPS checks in the game

You must be playing a different game, my dude. Healer DPS has been required in every savage fight until you outgear it. I don't care what Yoshi P said in an out-of-context interview several expansions ago, if fights are unbeatable without healer DPS then healer DPS is a requirement.

That is why such changes can't come mid-expansion, because if they did that, they would have to balance out the DPS by taking it away elsewhere.

Have you considered that potency would be removed from healers' Nuke+DoT instead of unrelated DPS classes?

A way around that is by adding in AoE skills since those skills are impractical to use on bosses. A positive result to that is that dungeons and other AoE situations become more fun to do

Have you considered that healer players might want to have fun outside of dungeons?

[Gemina]

You must be playing a different game, my dude. Healer DPS has been required in every savage fight until you outgear it. I don't care what Yoshi P said in an out-of-context interview several expansions ago, if fights are unbeatable without healer DPS then healer DPS is a requirement.

I am only going to say this once, because someone like you has to point out failure to meet DPS checks in high end content without healer DPS every time I mention this. It is a fact that the dev team does not factor healer DPS into DPS checks. I am not going to link the source because every time I do, then the rebuttal is, "REEEEEEE! that was from 2014. OMG lol!"

I've been playing this game for seven years. If you can provide some kind of feedback/source where they started putting healer DPS into these checks instead of just saying savages can't be cleared; or if you can even pass off your own experience in-game instead of words out of the echo chamber, then I am all ears. As of right now, if your team can't meet the checks, then the team's deeps aren't high enough, and healers are filling in the gaps in order to meet the checks.

Have you considered that potency would be removed from healers' Nuke+DoT instead of unrelated DPS classes?

I have. Have you considered that they have taken enough from healers when it comes to their DPS already?

Have you considered that healer players might want to have fun outside of dungeons?

I have. Have you considered that players might want to have fun inside dungeons?

[YusiKha]

Have you considered that they have taken enough from healers when it comes to their DPS already?

More DPS skills =/= higher dps numbers, in the same way that Fewer DPS skills =/= lower dps numbers.
How else would you explain WHM dealing more damage than Tanks?

When DPS skills have been removed from healers, the potency of the remaining skills has been increased to compensate -
StB -> ShB
Broil2's potency 230 -> 260
Bio2 350 -> 400
You see the point...

So to reintroduce damaging skills, they'd do the same in reverse - drop current potencies a little to compensate for gaining new skills. Overall it'd lead to the same damage contribution.

I have. Have you considered that players might want to have fun inside dungeons?

They're not mutually exclusive - how about we have skills that are usable in both AoE and single-target scenarios

I am only going to say this once, because someone like you has to point out failure to meet DPS checks in high end content without healer DPS every time I mention this. It is a fact that the dev team does not factor healer DPS into DPS checks. I am not going to link the source because every time I do, then the rebuttal is, "REEEEEEE! that was from 2014. OMG lol!"
I've been playing this game for seven years. If you can provide some kind of feedback/source where they started putting healer DPS into these checks instead of just saying savages can't be cleared; or if you can even pass off your own experience in-game instead of words out of the echo chamber, then I am all ears. As of right now, if your team can't meet the checks, then the team's deeps aren't high enough, and healers are filling in the gaps in order to meet the checks.

We can argue until the cows come home about whether it's a fact or not. I could show you my logged kills of Eden's Verse Savage, and show you how every successful kill would have ended with the boss' enrage attack without my and my cohealers' damage contribution. I could show you the world first, how players would literally have to be the best in the world to be able to clear content the same week it was released. How minimum iLevel is a setting for every instanced duty in the game - showing that the developers expect people to be able to clear content with the minimum gear available so 'fights designed to be outgeared to beat' is untrue.

But you'd rather look past that in favour of a quote that enables you to be lazy.
I would like to know why you wish for a selfish mindset to be accepted in a team game.

[Gemina]

More DPS skills =/= higher dps numbers, in the same way that Fewer DPS skills =/= lower dps numbers.
How else would you explain WHM dealing more damage than Tanks?

When DPS skills have been removed from healers, the potency of the remaining skills has been increased to compensate -
StB -> ShB
Broil2's potency 230 -> 260
Bio2 350 -> 400
You see the point...

So to reintroduce damaging skills, they'd do the same in reverse - drop current potencies a little to compensate for gaining new skills. Overall it'd lead to the same damage contribution.

That's all well and good, but I am talking about the overall rDPS. Bosses have a set amount of HP that is designed into an encounter, and a certain amount of damage is going to be required to bring it to zero. All I am saying is that if the rDPS increases to the point that the content becomes unbalanced, then someone is going to lose something. I would prefer this to not be the healers, and I can't even remember the last time I looked at patch notes and saw reduction to potencies to healer offensive skills. But feel free to remind me.

They're not mutually exclusive - how about we have skills that are usable in both AoE and single-target scenarios

This was basically my initial point with this. You're just quoting my rebuttal to the other poster, who for some reason thinks I am not taking everything I can into consideration when it comes to introducing new skills.

We can argue until the cows come home about whether it's a fact or not. I could show you my logged kills of Eden's Verse Savage, and show you how every successful kill would have ended with the boss' enrage attack without my and my cohealers' damage contribution. I could show you the world first, how players would literally have to be the best in the world to be able to clear content the same week it was released. How minimum iLevel is a setting for every instanced duty in the game - showing that the developers expect people to be able to clear content with the minimum gear available so 'fights designed to be outgeared to beat' is untrue.

There's no argument. Not until someone can actually post a source where the devs actually state different than what they did back in 2014. Thus far when I've been a part of these discussion, no one has been able to deliver. They mention things similar to you, and want to show my parse data. You can show me fflogs until I am blue in the face, and what I am going to ask is for you to post me a video so I can dissect all the wall freezes, stacked AoEs, vuln stacks on players, knockoffs, confusions and other ailments that reduce rDPS. You would literally have to show fflogs where everyone is well is in the upper tier of percentile, healers are not DPSing, and the DPS check still fails. From my experience, DPS checks fail despite healers DPSing, and I can guarantee that if you looked at those parsers, you will undoubtedly find where the DPS and possibly tanks are screwing up big time.

Listen, I am not saying healers don't have to DPS to clear savage. I am NOT saying it is ok for healers to stand around waiting to heal players who get damaged. I participate in high-end duties as well and I know without question that if I was not DPSing as a healer, the boss will enrage. I will also retort by saying that if healer DPS was factored into these encounters, clear rates would plummet. Each time I bring this up, players who do high-end duties are the ones to take offense. As if I am saying their deeps sucks. That's not what I am saying at all. I fully understand that a savage clear would not have been possible if the healers are not DPSing. Unfortunately, this does not change that their DPS is not factored into the checks.

But you'd rather look past that in favour of a quote that enables you to be lazy.
I would like to know why you wish for a selfish mindset to be accepted in a team game.

Spare me the ridicule. All this says is how quick you are to make assumptions, and have to resort to attacks because you simply can't accept a fact, or be bothered to invalidate it. You have zero clue where I am coming from at all if you think I condone lazy gameplay.

This issue isn't even here or there. The only reason why I brought up that tired arse statement from 2014 is to express an rDPS constriction when it comes to adding new skills mid expansion. This doesn't apply to just healers but everyone. But sensitive snowflakes out there who are too quick to get offended take it as a personal attack as if their skill level is being put into question. Seriously, get over yourself. There are bigger fish to fry and more than enough mountains, so leave the mole hills alone.

[Liam_Harper]

I am only going to say this once, because someone like you has to point out failure to meet DPS checks in high end content without healer DPS every time I mention this. It is a fact that the dev team does not factor healer DPS into DPS checks. I am not going to link the source because every time I do, then the rebuttal is, "REEEEEEE! that was from 2014. OMG lol!"

The source is false. It's been mathematically calculated and proven many times that healer dps is essential on Savage fights.
Shiva Savage has a raid dps requirement of 106k. The top world speed kills only have 102-104k if you remove their healer dps. It is not intended that tanks and dps play at 100th percentile in a perfect parse comp with BiS gear and lucky crit rate to clear the tier, while healers drool over the keyboard.

It doesn't matter if Yoshi said 2 + 2 = 5 in the past, that doesn't make it fact. Sometimes devs are wrong. It happens all the time.

[Veis_Alveare]

The source is false. It's been mathematically calculated and proven many times that healer dps is essential on Savage fights.
Shiva Savage has a raid dps requirement of 106k. The top world speed kills only have 102-104k if you remove their healer dps. It is not intended that tanks and dps play at 100th percentile in a perfect parse comp with BiS gear and lucky crit rate to clear the tier, while healers drool over the keyboard.

It doesn't matter if Yoshi said 2 + 2 = 5 in the past, that doesn't make it fact. Sometimes devs are wrong. It happens all the time.

I assume this won't get a rebuttal, at least nothing meaningful about how you just proved "hey a quote from 2014 is irrelevant now" with math, but I wanted to say good job.

I find I amusing that people hol so dearly to that old quote just to white knight bad healers but we don't talk about things like Yoshida assuring us FC and player housing would be separate.

Like... guys, it's pretty clear at this point not everything this man says is truthful forever. In 2014 I bet they didn't balance fights with healer dps in mind. In 2014 we also had accuracy melds and Cleric Stance plus we lacked the freaking armada of instant/oGCD heals that we have now. Things were in a different place compared to now, dpsing as a healer was far more of a skill-based thing. Now Glare mage go brrr.

[Gemina]

I assume this won't get a rebuttal, at least nothing meaningful about how you just proved "hey a quote from 2014 is irrelevant now" with math, but I wanted to say good job.

I find I amusing that people hol so dearly to that old quote just to white knight bad healers but we don't talk about things like Yoshida assuring us FC and player housing would be separate.

Like... guys, it's pretty clear at this point not everything this man says is truthful forever. In 2014 I bet they didn't balance fights with healer dps in mind. In 2014 we also had accuracy melds and Cleric Stance plus we lacked the freaking armada of instant/oGCD heals that we have now. Things were in a different place compared to now, dpsing as a healer was far more of a skill-based thing. Now Glare mage go brrr.

That's what you get for assuming, because I just rebutted it.

I will say one last time that this is not an argument to give lazy healers a pass. If you think that's what I am doing then just bow out. You clearly allow some kind of pride, or inflated ego to cloud the points I am trying to get across. I mean hell, you're bringing up the ludicrous housing system in order to make a point.

If the healer DPS factor has changed since 2014, then I would like to know when. Anyone?.... Anyone?

If you read before responding those groups have 102-104k if you subtract their healer dps so healer dps is literally how they clear.

Either your expectation is that SE designed e8s to necessitate perfection + perfect crit luck to clear (because that's what you'd need before even managing to get BiS which you'd need to clear the fight to do) or you can admit that at this point healer dps is required to clear.

I have already admitted that my own DPS as healer has been required to clear high end duties. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Veis_Alveare]

That's what you get for assuming, because I just rebutted it.

I will say one last time that this is not an argument to give lazy healers a pass. If you think that's what I am doing then just bow out. You clearly allow some kind of pride, or inflated ego to cloud the points I am trying to get across. I mean hell, you're bringing up the ludicrous housing system in order to make a point.

If the healer DPS factor has changed since 2014, then I would like to know when. Anyone?.... Anyone?

Like I've already pointed out you entirely failed to rebut it because you either didn't read or didn't understand what you were reading.

The 102-104k number is after subtracting their healer dps.

Meaning the best players in the world don't clear without healer dps.

[Gemina]

The source is false. It's been mathematically calculated and proven many times that healer dps is essential on Savage fights.
Shiva Savage has a raid dps requirement of 106k. The top world speed kills only have 102-104k if you remove their healer dps. It is not intended that tanks and dps play at 100th percentile in a perfect parse comp with BiS gear and lucky crit rate to clear the tier, while healers drool over the keyboard.

It doesn't matter if Yoshi said 2 + 2 = 5 in the past, that doesn't make it fact. Sometimes devs are wrong. It happens all the time.

Do you see what you did there? If a raid has a DPS requirement of 106k, and the top speed kills are doing 102-104k, how the hell are they even clearing it at all? Who exactly is saying 2+2=5 here?

Indeed devs are wrong and mistakes all the time. That's redundant though. If the devs say healer DPS is not factored when it actually is, it doesn't make them wrong; it makes them liars.