The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

[ObsidianFire]

But in fact, that ideal is not the truth. The closest thing to the ideals of WoL is fighting for salvation without sacrificing others. This was the conclusion of both you and Alphinaud in 3.2 and 3.3, to reject more sacrifices for the greater good, and instead resolve to try to save everyone even if you might fail.

Oh, the WoL doesn't sacrifice other people! No, we sacrifice ourselves! And other people definetly notice!

One of the main reasons people love us and want to be like us is because we are not a hypocrite. We don't tell other people to sacrifice themselves for us. We don't even ask them to. Instead we deny our own wants a lot of the time to try to solve other people's problems by ourselves. And are then shocked when those other people we were helping out also sacrifice themselves for us. We never have asked anyone to save us. Not Minfillia, not Moenbryda, not Harchefaut, not Yasale, not the people of the doomed time-line, etc. But they still did it anyway.

The truth of the matter is, sometimes we are the "other person" whose problems someone else is solving. And denying people their right to chose to sacrifice themselves would make us the biggest hypocrite of all. Everyone needs to be saved sometimes, even us. But we've never forced anyone to save us; everyone who has done that has decided to all on their own. But it's also undeniable that without our example, a lot of people wouldn't have been inspired to give of themselves sacrificially just like we do.

So are Ascians actually tempered or was the devotion (most) the Unsundered had to restoring their world akin to being tempered in that they could not be swayed from their course? Lesser Ascians like Fandaniel don't seem like they care at all and making a boxing match between what was thought to be the God he's devoted to and the sworn enemy that laid Him low a fun plan to enact.

How types of Tempering works depends a lot on the Primal doing the Tempering. Even Ifrit, who mainly has a kind of Tempering that robs people of any personality, is capable of Tempering people subtly to the point no one knows they are Tempered until that person brings the Amalja'a down on their heads. We see a very broad range of Tempering effects throughout the game. Lakshmi is probably a Primal to consider as she can Temper people while not outright destroying their personalities.

Zodiark just seems to have a very subtle form of Tempering that just seems to "nudge" what the Convoction wants. Everything the Convocation does after they summons Zoidark ultimately results in Zoidark gaining more aether. The "why" of why Zoidark gets aether shifts around a bit, but the solution is always "give Zoidark more aether so he can fix our problem for us". I have no doubt that Emet-Selch and the Unsundered Ascians genuinely loved their world and their people and genuinely missed them. I do think Zoidark played a part in blinding them to other realities around them (like the other races that came after the Ancients being people) so that they would think he was the only way to "solve" their loss. And for Zodiark to solve that loss, he needed aether...

Furthermore, if we are Azem pursuing the third option, how did we end up being Hydaelyn's chosen? Wouldn't picking us be a mistake if we ever figured out who we really were and learned about what happened in the past?

What I think happened is that Azem stopped staying neutral and did pick a side... which wasn't Zoidark's. Azem's entire role centers around going around the world and solving people's problems. Which probably gave Azem a much different perspective on the Last Days. So there was probably a lot more reasons than just "summoning a god is bad" that led Azem to not wanting to summon Zoidark.

Once Zoidark and Hydaelyn are both summoned though... there's no way to put the genie back in the bottle probably. One off them was going to end up as the Will of the Star most likely. So it was probably a question of "between Zoidark and Hydaelyn, which one would be less bad for the world in the long run" and Zoidark had already effectively asked for aether equivalent to half the current population of the world after being summoned... and even after getting all that aether, he had asked for more aether, to the point the Convocation was willing to deliberately raise life up only to sacrifice it later. Meanwhile, Hydalyn just wants Zoidark sealed and for him to leave the world alone. So I think Azem picked the least worst option at the time. Or for all we know... Hydaelyn Sundering Zoidark was the 3rd Option Azem came up with...

Fortunately, I think we'll get a good idea of what Azem really did back then. Emet-Selch made a memorial crystal of his memories of us after the Sundering happened. And our signature Echo ability is seeing into the past of people and objects...

[YianKutku]

Zodiark just seems to have a very subtle form of Tempering that just seems to "nudge" what the Convoction wants.

And then there's Lahabrea, who goes on about Zodiark being the One True God and Hydaelyn being a False God(dess), even though literally nobody actively worships Hydaelyn as a deity. (We acknowledge her existence and also concede that she has godlike powers, but we don't worship her.)

Not even the Sundered necessarily see Zodiark as a god, as shown by Fandaniel. So I have no idea why Lahabrea got tempered hard enough to believe Zodiark to be the True God, when even Emet-Selch went "yeah, Zodiark's a Primal, he tempered us, next question". And Lahabrea's condescending dismissal of Elidibus also seems weird in light of the revelation that Elidibus is a Primal-made portion of Zodiark.

[Iscah]

And then there's Lahabrea, who goes on about Zodiark being the One True God and Hydaelyn being a False God(dess), even though literally nobody actively worships Hydaelyn as a deity. (We acknowledge her existence and also concede that she has godlike powers, but we don't worship her.)

Worship might not be the right word, but I think those who are aware of Hydaelyn certainly revere her in the same way they do the Twelve. (We don't see anyone actively worship them either, but I'm sure they do.) Things like saying "may you walk in the light of the Crystal" instead of invoking the Twelve or another specific god.

[ShadowMeowth]

Cut because too many characters.

Besides the point that both are false gods, the first one that "earned" the right to be called a god would be Zodiark, being will of the star made manifest and the whole thing, but whatever the point, they are both primals. However, in Lahabrea's defense (and I am not known for advocating in favor of Lahabrea) I speculate that, as the resident most prominent scholar and sage researching phantomology, the brunt of Zodiark's summoning would have fallen to him, and he probably directed the energies, the concept, that formed Zodiark. In any case, the way the Ascians refer to Zodiark as the one true god seems more like a formality than true belief. To be fair, except Elidibus because we know he does not have much of a choice there, even the Unsundered see Zodiark more like a means to an end: Lahabrea for whatever he is scheming and Elidibus has to admonish him, and Emet does not bat an eye when admitting that the only thing he expects from Zodiark is to have his people and his loved ones back. Rejoining the worlds, yes, of course the Unsundered work to that end, but that does not mean they necessarily enjoy the idea; at least Emet does not, because he himself admits he has been searching for "a path of lesser tragedy" for a long time. So the Rejoining is probably more about Zodiark's purpose (and I cannot blame the will of the star for wanting to become whole) seeping into His tempered and driving this compulsion.

As for the sundered Ascians, if Fandaniel is setting a precedent, then they definitely are not chained in service to Zodiark. And it would make sense because they are sundered, which means they ascended to their seats when Zodiark was already bound inside the moon, and He would have a hard time tempering anyone in that state. The only way I see them being tempered is if Elidibus had any hand in their ascension since he is a primal, but the one who had the constellation crystals was Emet, and Elidibus was quite taken aback when we give them to him. Perhaps the sundered Ascians are influenced, but not tempered; therefore, as Saint Ajora did in Hydaelyn's case, they can turn against Zodiark.

Concerning Lahabrea's condescending dismissal of Elidibus, well... Considering that Elidibus was suffering a bad case of fog-of-ages, I can see Lahabrea forgetting that Elidibus is actually a primal. So far, the only one who truly remembers things rather reliably is Emet, and he did because he made great efforts to not forget. And this is obvious because he littered every single nation we know he had a hand on with specific references to that which he did not want to forget, and the only Ascian who remembered the Fourteenth seat was him, and it was because he broke Ancient law and crafted Azem's crystal and held onto it hidden from the others for 12000 years.

[JeanneOrnitier]

And then there's Lahabrea, who goes on about Zodiark being the One True God and Hydaelyn being a False God(dess), even though literally nobody actively worships Hydaelyn as a deity. (We acknowledge her existence and also concede that she has godlike powers, but we don't worship her.)

Not even the Sundered necessarily see Zodiark as a god, as shown by Fandaniel. So I have no idea why Lahabrea got tempered hard enough to believe Zodiark to be the True God, when even Emet-Selch went "yeah, Zodiark's a Primal, he tempered us, next question". And Lahabrea's condescending dismissal of Elidibus also seems weird in light of the revelation that Elidibus is a Primal-made portion of Zodiark.

Lahabrea wasn't exactly right in the head. Didn't Emet say somewhere that Lahabrea body hopping so much broke his mind or something?

[Cilia]

Lahabrea wasn't exactly right in the head. Didn't Emet say somewhere that Lahabrea body hopping so much broke his mind or something?

It reduced his power due to the effort needed to wrest control of bodies from their owners. No mention of it reducing his mental faculties was ever made.

[Rosenoire]

Not even the Sundered necessarily see Zodiark as a god, as shown by Fandaniel. So I have no idea why Lahabrea got tempered hard enough to believe Zodiark to be the True God, when even Emet-Selch went "yeah, Zodiark's a Primal, he tempered us, next question".

When Emet-Selch gives us the big reveal after Qitana Ravel, he says:

Emet-Selch: But through prayer and sacrifice, the will of the star was made manifest.
Emet-Selch: Zodiark was His name, and by His grace was the calamity averted.
Emet-Selch:...A savior mighty and magnificent, deserving of reverence and gratitude one would have thought.

That definiitely sounds like worship.

[YianKutku]

When Emet-Selch gives us the big reveal after Qitana Ravel, he says:



That definiitely sounds like worship.

To be honest, given Emet-Selch's later (and some earlier) comments, I've always read this as biting sarcasm on Emet-Selch's part. But it's true that he could be sincere here, and the dialogue where he's less than reverent towards Zodiark could be his way of playing it cool for some reason.

[Kesey]

To be honest, given Emet-Selch's later (and some earlier) comments, I've always read this as biting sarcasm on Emet-Selch's part. But it's true that he could be sincere here, and the dialogue where he's less than reverent towards Zodiark could be his way of playing it cool for some reason.

It was sarcasm on Emet's part. But I think he was referring to the fact that even though they sacrificed so much to get Zodiark and saved their civilization, there was still a faction that broke off and summoned Hydaelyn, leading to the situation he has in the present of setting up and causing rejoinings. That he is allowed, from his POV, to be a bit salty about.

[Veloran]

Oh, the WoL doesn't sacrifice other people! No, we sacrifice ourselves!

WoL is still alive, you might have noticed.

And are then shocked when those other people we were helping out also sacrifice themselves for us. We never have asked anyone to save us. Not Minfillia, not Moenbryda, not Harchefaut, not Yasale,

Here's the difference - Those people all died for us. All WoL "sacrifices" is time and energy, and even then we see that a part of him despises too much self-sacrifice on his part. When those people give their lives for you, they're not following your example, because your example is to win without dying for it.
Also all of those people were before 3.2 and 3.3 where you resolve not to let that happen again. The doomed future is arguable because A. it's not like WoL was there to stop it and B. time shenanigans makes it so that didn't happen to begin with.

The truth of the matter is, sometimes we are the "other person" whose problems someone else is solving. And denying people their right to chose to sacrifice themselves would make us the biggest hypocrite of all.

Okay, then you are a hypocrite, because you do exactly that with Estinien.

Look, in this patch we literally beat down the incarnation of self-sacrifice. WoL does not stand for that ideal. Azem wouldn't accept that then, and you don't accept that now. And I think WoL should take major issue with Hydaelyn coercing people to give up their lives to fight for her in a war they don't understand. People have been laying down their lives for her for thousands of years without really knowing why, or who they're really on the side of. That's not an acceptable status quo to just propagate into the future.