Summoner: An action or a dot?

[ReiMakoto]

They should take the dots off of smn and replace them with more egi interactions, then make another job (scholar) have the DoT identity

[CaptainLagbeard]

One thing I've been wanting for SMN is something that temporarily (because let's be realistic, a permanent could be a little too much) turns the Egi into a proper Primal.

Just make it separate from the whole Dreadwyrm Trance -> Bahamut -> Firebird Trance chain...

[EtherRose]

Keep the summon. They do need to improve how the Egi's look though.

[kaynide]

Personally I'd be for slight reskinning of summoner along the lines of what happens to WHM. (eg. Stone later becoming "Glare").

The DoTs could be turned into identical mechanical abilities, just skinned as some sort of micro-summon.

I'd only suggest this if they were ever intending to create a new virus-based mage, or if the bio/virus series of magic had a better fit elsewhere.

Alternatively, I do wish it was rather a sort of choice progression for the big summons.. maybe Bahamut for raw firepower, Phoenix for AoE burn? Maybe a third later on for general DoT/buffs?
Basically allowing one to build up the big summon bar, then summon whichever is best for the situation, or a rotation like Bard's songs so all used, but in an order up to the caster.

[linayar]

MMO in general tend to think pet classes means having a wolf follow you around 24/7.

Well, if you want to call it a pet, then I think that's how it should be. Otherwise, if it's temporary, it should be called a summon or a minion. And that's what I think a Summoner should have: a summon or a minion, not a pet.

[MirronTulaxia]

Personally I'd be for slight reskinning of summoner along the lines of what happens to WHM. (eg. Stone later becoming "Glare").

The DoTs could be turned into identical mechanical abilities, just skinned as some sort of micro-summon.

I'd only suggest this if they were ever intending to create a new virus-based mage, or if the bio/virus series of magic had a better fit elsewhere.

Alternatively, I do wish it was rather a sort of choice progression for the big summons.. maybe Bahamut for raw firepower, Phoenix for AoE burn? Maybe a third later on for general DoT/buffs?
Basically allowing one to build up the big summon bar, then summon whichever is best for the situation, or a rotation like Bard's songs so all used, but in an order up to the caster.

I wouldn’t mind some refluffing to be sure. I still feel they could tie the DoT aspect to the summoner aspect better. It’s kind of a shame that it feels so disjointed.

[Esmoire]

I would want summoner to focus more on summons and would not mind at all if the DoTs were gone. Maybe make a debuff mage as a new job that is about DoTs and debuffs; not a lot you can do in PvE but even something like the old TA would be cool. Maybe Necromancer.

[HeulGDarian]

I assure you, removing dots would piss most summoners off. Also how do you go through 5.0 and think hmmm putting unnecessary extra interactions to them is the way to go. Have you guys heard of the saying more is less? The dots got as much gameplay as they need to have, we got bard as someone whose whole kit is based on dots being up, we dont need smn to be the same. As for not fitting the identity, i call bull the game gives a really good picture on what Summoner is and what he can and cant do , personal strict definitions and nostalgia from older games are completely irrelevant.

[MirronTulaxia]

I assure you, removing dots would piss most summoners off. Also how do you go through 5.0 and think hmmm putting unnecessary extra interactions to them is the way to go. Have you guys heard of the saying more is less? The dots got as much gameplay as they need to have, we got bard as someone whose whole kit is based on dots being up, we dont need smn to be the same. As for not fitting the identity, i call bull the game gives a really good picture on what Summoner is and what he can and cant do , personal strict definitions and nostalgia from older games are completely irrelevant.

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

[Shougun]

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

Yeah (+1, the following in agreement, support, and expansion of your argument)... You can disregard your history but to say people would always enjoy you subverting everything because "I can" is.. well that's crazy talk lol. Not saying HeulGDarian says disregard everything, but that you can easily lead to upset by ignoring your roots.

Blue is red now. Chocobos look like moogles! hahahahaha, *maniacal laughter* /insert tic tac toe meme image here.

I'm being very extreme of course lol (for a point), but history is absolutely part of an image. You can subvert expectations, that can be fun sometimes, but it also can be wholly unwelcomed. Like if we had a hyper-realistic FF game you might see black mage actually be a sort of bomb throwing alchemist, using chemical combinations to form elemental attacks- doesn't actually use magic, but people would probably accept that if the game fit it (so the subversion would be realistic FF, and black mage would fit that). Now if the whole game was hyper magical and yet black mage was tossing chemical bombs still some people might think cool but others would be like . . . . . "seriously? Dark Knight is using black magic and I'm throwing bombs?!?!? what the heck SE! Should have made chemist this, I want BLACK MAGE, you know the one from the other 300 games you've made??".

Chocobos are actually little goblins that we ride around on their backs, the gold goblins run the fastest and can fly. Maybe that'd be a funny goof or fit in another game, but would be awful if attempting to sell the whole game like that (and trying to be a serious FF game at the same time).

And why does history matter you say? Well because it's a FF game and they clearly build and relate upon themselves. Not hyper strictly (which allows for subversion of course, but you can fail subversion- which is my point there, you can try something different and it can frankly be a bad try lol).

If SE wanted to not have it relate to other FF games and not have a relationship to the history of FF.. try.. not calling it a FF game. So yes the history of Summoners matters because this isn't A realm Reborn. This is FFXIV: A Realm Reborn.

All that- I did want to say ARR's SMN was fine gameplay wise, I just think it really missed the mark in the thematic vibe/visual department. It was a fine job, it just wasn't a fine Summoner. Which comparing SMNs is and should be allowed as this is again not A Realm Reborn, it's Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (well now Shadowbringers, but at the time this was a hot hot issue it was "ARR" lol).

If you improve or subvert expectations in a welcomed way you win (and it's totally okay to attempt to subvert expectation), if you make the exact same thing over and over and people get bored- you lose, if you subvert and fail then you lose. They didn't, imo, improve the job and they didn't subvert in a way that was interesting (why would I want to play something so diminutive compared to it's history- and it's not like the rest of FFXIV is hyper-restrictive either, like comparing your shanty town to Rivendale lol). Though to their credit they've worked on it each expansion. Honestly once they added trance and demi-bahamut I was pretty happy. Still desire they go dig deep and give a make over to some elements, like adding more egi (with functions), and thematic primal vibes to spells (visual and actual, attempting to tell a story through more than just potency numbers, when possible and balance-able), but that doesn't require a complete destruction of their gameplay/loop (can be fit within the structure already present), and again am largely happy with the changes they've made in attempts to give SMN the 'FF' summoner vibes but also am not opposed to further passes over the job to refine the theme (like when Phoenix comes out with a pretty substantial heal over time for example I was like 'dudeeeeee, nice job guys!').