Revelations from Patch 5.3

[Cilia]

See, this is why you never criticize an auteur's work. Their ardent fans won't let you get away with it.

Despite my original post on the subject telling I know about characters from Automata who haven't appeared here, and a follow-up explicitly stating I've played some of it and have the gist of the whole thing, people feel the need to patronize me on the subject.

I very much do not appreciate that, especially when my main criticism is that 2P was a bait and switch and the "real" 2B is inexplicably here (in addition to all the other still unexplained stuff). After the debacle of The Last Jedi my patience for "subverted expectations" has grown incredibly thin, and patience never was the greatest of my virtues. Despite that I'm willing to get the full context - or any context at this point, really - before deciding whether it's good or not.

Either way, the criticism that Yoko Taro's works rely heavily on intrigue is a valid one, and consequently they will not be to everyone's taste. Regardless, half a dozen people jumping on and patronizingly explaining about how "You just don't understand his genius!" isn't going to help that. Everyone has different tastes, so it's perfectly fine to criticize and/or dislike something for whatever reason or even no clear reason at all.

[EdwinLi]

See, this is why you never criticize an auteur's work. Their ardent fans won't let you get away with it.

Despite my original post on the subject telling I know about characters from Automata who haven't appeared here, and a follow-up explicitly stating I've played some of it and have the gist of the whole thing, people feel the need to patronize me on the subject.

I very much do not appreciate that, especially when my main criticism is that 2P was a bait and switch and the "real" 2B is inexplicably here (in addition to all the other still unexplained stuff). After the debacle of The Last Jedi my patience for "subverted expectations" has grown incredibly thin, and patience never was the greatest of my virtues. Despite that I'm willing to get the full context - or any context at this point, really - before deciding whether it's good or not.

Either way, the criticism that Yoko Taro's works rely heavily on intrigue is a valid one, and consequently they will not be to everyone's taste. Regardless, half a dozen people jumping on and patronizingly explaining about how "You just don't understand his genius!" isn't going to help that. Everyone has different tastes, so it's perfectly fine to criticize and/or dislike something for whatever reason or even no clear reason at all.

I am only stating how the Drakengard/Nier seires always present their storyline. I have no intention of insulting nor being offended towards a person over choosing not to like the way the storyline is presented.

The Drakengard/Nier series is infamous for the storyline always being "It is not what it appears to be" which of course will not be favored by people who don't like heavy plot twists midway or near the end of the storyline that completely changes everything you knew from the beginning.

I will present a SPOILER about Nier for example how twisted the series storyline can become...

Nier 1, for example, appears to be a story about a Dad (or brother based on which version) trying to save his daughter from the King of all monsters that threaten this land and saving the people living in the land. However, on New Game+ mode it is revealed that all Shades and the Shadow King is in fact the last surviving Human race and the "humans" we see in the game are automata bodies that have gained sentient life and think they themselves are the Humans but originally these automata bodies were meant to act as new bodies for the real Humans. Due to lack of the ability to understand the Shade, Nier has been slaughtering a lot of the good Shades with the bad ones because in his eyes they are mindless monsters. Most of the Shades are only attacking Nier out of self defense and to makes things worse it is revealed once the Shades dies so will these automata as well thus why all Humans are dead in Nier Automata because the original Main character from Nier 1 killed all the Humans and even his own people unintentionally due to not knowing the truth.

Emil only lived because he is a experiment subject created to be the Ultimate Weapon thus he was a altered Human. After everyone died and Emil was left alone in the world he created the Androids to defend Earth even though he was the only one alive thus leading to the war with the aliens and eventual plot of Nier Automata. In perspective Emil basically attacked the Aliens with a Android army when they thought there was no life on the planet and considered it was safe to colonize since no civilization existed on Earth anymore.

[Rosenstrauch]

Count me among those who aren't terribly impressed with the Nier Automata raids thus far.

The Copied Factory setting up the plot with a bunch of mystery boxes was one thing, but we're two acts into a three act story now. Only one of those boxes has been opened: "Who is 2P?" That answer came along with a host of other mysteries, meaning that it's all up to Act Three to explain why all of what we've seen has happened. That's a tall order for any writer, and it's entirely reasonable to be concerned that Yoko Taro won't be able to pull that off—and that's if he even tries to.

But that's not the real problem with the Automata raids, I think. The truth is, the overall story thus far has been painfully sparse. This is partly the fault of the story's format—Three Allied Raids and the quests surrounding them is a far cry from a full length RPG, to say nothing of 2 1/2 full length RPGs (which Nier Automata kind of is). But previous raids were able to do more with the space they had than the Automata raids thus far.

So to be frank, I don't expect the final raid to make good use of the space it has, and I don't see how it can. That doesn't mean I'm not hoping for it to turn out great—just that I'm not exactly holding my breath anymore.

As an aside, 2P is actually kind of interesting and it's a shame she had to die to make that happen.

[Vyrerus]

Well, I suppose I have some takes on the MSQ for 5.3 as well.

Let's see... simple opinions and takes first.

I love, love, love the new dungeon. The new trial is OK.

I loved the Archon Loaf. I loved the Alisae hunting contest, reflective of Hien's hunting contest back in 4.0.

I loved G'raha's new outfit and staff.

Now for the meat of my thoughts.

Elidibus came off as being out of character to me this patch. To me, it seemed like they completely rewrote him, just to fit into the story they're telling now, rather than writing him based on his past appearances. It seemed like there was a lot they wanted to do with him, while simultaneously also wanting to kill him off this patch. Everything he did was unsatisfying. From the memory fight instance where he conveniently forgot to have us fight the WoDs to him being unable to replicate air, lightning, and aetherial slashing type attacks. Despite being able to replicate fused soul dragon/dragoon attacks. Meh.
However, I got excited when he fought us as Ardbert, to show us what Ardbert was truly capable of... probably the real reason they omitted the WoD fight was because even when it was current it was a ROFLSTOMP.

Then he seemed to drop a crystal, and first I took it to be Ardbert's Warrior soul crystal. It wasn't, but I was convinced the zodiac convocation stones were job stones till about half way through picking them up. Very cool plot point, but it just opens up so many questions, and I just know most of them ain't gonna get answered. Loved that it turned out to be Hytholadaeus being the one dropping them for us, being a failsafe/beyond the grave way for Emet-selch to aid us, as he hadn't planned on beating us. Something something, the longest suicide note written in history, and he was putting himself out of his misery via our, "beastly strength." Of course, the Shoebill is in the Pendants, and there are people writing up theories on Hades still being alive.

On that note, the most interesting confirmation/story piece from this patch was that we, the WoL, were the 14th Convocation seat, Azem. This just leads me to think back to Hades words to us before our final battle with him, the bit with him saying, "I will take back my birthright!" I don't know if that's an English localization hiccup, but it always struck me as curious, and as of now, it's still unanswered. If it's more than a hiccup, then I want to know, was Hades originally auditioning for the seat of Azem, only for us to take it from him? Were we his old brother or younger or something? There's so much more I want to know about our Amaurotine past.

Also I kinda think Y'shtola is a b{kupo!}ch. I think her giving Runar false hope and flirting with him hard like that is kinda shitty. I don't think the other scions will ever find a way back to the First, and I don't see the story carrying them back there in any capacity, ever. Take your bets now, I guess. Course, that in particular isn't so bad. Runar's a good guy and doesn't deserve to be grilled. What I'm mad at her about is the whole subtle convo she has as current dialogue once everything is done. About G'raha.
She says she won't drop the Tia portion until he decides what he's going to be in life or whatever, basically saying she doesn't acknowledge that he was already a Nunh. Guess she needs him to bang some of his own nieces like a regular Nunh before she gives him true respect. Big props to Alphinaud though.

I found the Feo Ul dream gear Tataru thing with her making them the gear they used on The First to be kinda shitty too. I was looking forward to new gear for all of them, only for them to wind up in the same exact clothes. Like, COME ON!

As far as Fandango and Zenos are concerned... seems like Fandango doesn't really understand who Zenos is as a person. Thinking that he could have bothered him by having possessed someone he knew. But I can't wait to see Zenos kill him. This much is foreshadowed by Fandango tossing the money up into the air, exclaiming his love for it, only for Zenos to stab a gil in half with his katana. My money's on Fandango getting in the way of him fighting us, perhaps accidentally, and Zenos killing him as a repercussion.

[YianKutku]

Count me among those who aren't terribly impressed with the Nier Automata raids thus far.

The Copied Factory setting up the plot with a bunch of mystery boxes was one thing, but we're two acts into a three act story now. Only one of those boxes has been opened: "Who is 2P?" That answer came along with a host of other mysteries, meaning that it's all up to Act Three to explain why all of what we've seen has happened. That's a tall order for any writer, and it's entirely reasonable to be concerned that Yoko Taro won't be able to pull that off—and that's if he even tries to.

But that's not the real problem with the Automata raids, I think. The truth is, the overall story thus far has been painfully sparse. This is partly the fault of the story's format—Three Allied Raids and the quests surrounding them is a far cry from a full length RPG, to say nothing of 2 1/2 full length RPGs (which Nier Automata kind of is). But previous raids were able to do more with the space they had than the Automata raids thus far.

So to be frank, I don't expect the final raid to make good use of the space it has, and I don't see how it can. That doesn't mean I'm not hoping for it to turn out great—just that I'm not exactly holding my breath anymore.

As an aside, 2P is actually kind of interesting and it's a shame she had to die to make that happen.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how much of my disinterest in the Yorha raids is due to my own dislike of Nier Automata, and how much is due to the raids itself.

Like, when we get the information that the machine lifeforms are aliens and they're trying to understand humans by emulating us in weird ways, I really wanted a dialogue option or acknowledgement going "yeah, it's a thing that happens, the last time the machine at least tried both male and female forms".

I strongly suspect one of the problems crossover plots like this has is that they want to tell a story based on the themes of their original source, without taking into account whether those themes have already been covered and addressed in the wider FFXIV lore. "The monsters you fight are the real People, while you are a simulacrum" should be answered with "yes, we've heard that one from Emet-Selch, and we rejected his conclusion that we are any lesser for being simulacra". "You should consider what lives those you fought have led" is met with "Frey and Myste hammered the point home several times, yes". And "what is a person, and can a machine like me be one" is "break out of your programming like Alpha did and Omega failed to do".

[Vyrerus]

Puppet Bunker from my eyes (Also way earlier in the thread, that, "Become what you must, become 10 characters." was golden, Yiankutku

I loved its aesthetics, music, and fight design. Very fun raid. Made me want to do it more, but it was a shame I got both drops I was after right away on my first run. Hopefully next week takes me a few tries hehe. The final boss screamed of a certain horror story written in 1984 by Clive Barker, "In The Hills, The Cities." It's about two gay British guys who are honeymooning in rural Yugoslavia. They get carjacked and this leads to them encountering a "city." With what you know about the final boss in the Puppet Bunker, I'll let you put two and two together. It definitely reeks of the sort of fun that we shouldn't think too hard about, though I'm sure it makes more of an impact if you're heavily invested in Nier Autotomato.

As far as the Nier plotline goes, I'm mostly invested in it for the dwarves. I don't really care too much about 2B, 2P, or 9S. I tried to get into Nier Automata, as I had loved Drakengard... and while I found it decently fun, my own friend groups were masochisming themselves on Very Hard, and I just wasn't down for that(as comical as dying to bridge rubble could be). Even just playing on normal though, I'd already explored the kinds of questions about reality and existence all of the characters within it pose, and being an avid horror/weird fiction reader made most of the shock value things occurring, like the machines trying to bump uglies and humanity actually being dead all along... not really hard twists for me to take. Nor the rogue virus or whatever. I just couldn't get invested beyond 2B and A2's slick booties.

[EdwinLi]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how much of my disinterest in the Yorha raids is due to my own dislike of Nier Automata, and how much is due to the raids itself.

Like, when we get the information that the machine lifeforms are aliens and they're trying to understand humans by emulating us in weird ways, I really wanted a dialogue option or acknowledgement going "yeah, it's a thing that happens, the last time the machine at least tried both male and female forms".

I strongly suspect one of the problems crossover plots like this has is that they want to tell a story based on the themes of their original source, without taking into account whether those themes have already been covered and addressed in the wider FFXIV lore. "The monsters you fight are the real People, while you are a simulacrum" should be answered with "yes, we've heard that one from Emet-Selch, and we rejected his conclusion that we are any lesser for being simulacra". "You should consider what lives those you fought have led" is met with "Frey and Myste hammered the point home several times, yes". And "what is a person, and can a machine like me be one" is "break out of your programming like Alpha did and Omega failed to do".

In honestly, if this raid story follows Ending D as people suspect this is most likely a attempt by the Machine Lifeforms to become the next generations of Adam and Eve.

In Nier Automata, Adam and Eve were the first P series machine lifeforms and from the collectable lore we can gather from both 1st raid and 2nd raid it seems they are attempting to transfer and evolve themselves to become the next generations of Adam and Eve which as we have seen is successful since now we have the P series Machine liforms as our enemies here in 2nd Raid and potentially 3rd raid.

From what we learn in 2nd Raid, the P stands for Puppet because their bodies are puppets for the Machine lifeforms to use so they can become Human and they are modifying these Puppets to become more human in design slowly.

As of now my own theory is that Adam and Eve may have continued their research into becoming more Human thus resulted in the creation of the P-series. We know they are on the spaceship in Ending D so it can be assumed they are here on the First as well potentially being the leader of the P-series Machine Lifeforms since they themselves are the original two P-series Machine Lifeforms.

[RicaRuin]

Quick thought about the Future NieR Raid.

Alright, I never really finished Automata, but I know about Adam and Eve. And when another user said they could be the next boss, I realised we actually have a hint at that.
Remember Blufever, who were quite on point with their leaks? Well, back then they announced Omega M and F as Adam and Eve, but it seemed that their name was changed later in the production. But why was it changed? Looking at the timing, they most likely already made plans about the Collaboration Raid. And they changed the name of the Final Omega Tier because those boss names would be needed later...
Just speculation.

[Vyrerus]

Sorrow of Sapphire Weapon

Uh, I loved this a lot. It was over and done so quickly, but I found the controls for the G-Warrior to be engaging. Funny enough, I sort of ignored the beam attack, as the last two sword slices cleave, and I killed all the turrets that way. Quite the fun little instance.

The view screen pop ups with simplified mouth flaps made me smile like an idiot. Not sure what all the dialogue options for the WoL were referencing, but I kept it curt. Loved the music in Terncliff, and most of all, I loved that if you talk to the Ironworks engineer behind the resistance guy who will take you back to The Lochs, you get a hangar section where you get to shake down the G-Warrior like you're in the Gear Hangar of the Yggdrasil in Xenogears.

Kinda dissatisfied with what the Duskwight told us about how Gaius is indebted to him. I was hoping more for some sort of dark sorcery being all that's the plank between Gaius and perdition. Seemed sorta lazy and unbelievable, but I guess if that's that, I have no say in it.

New villain had cool armor, but I wonder why they blacked out his face. Child slave attendants is kind of weird...

Also I now wonder what's going to happen to the G-Warrior to make us have to fight the other weapons like normal trials.

[Lium]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned yet but...

But Zenos’ companion, the sundered Ascian, was very happy Elidibus is no more. Another poster in this thread mentioned that things could actually be worse now because there are no Unsundered left to control all the lesser Ascians, which are still powerful enough to wreak considerable havoc on the star. But neither Zenos or his companion seem all that interested in rejoinings. Not sure if they even have the power if they wanted to.

So does that mean no more Calamities? Are we just going to be fighting chaos itself? Zenos’ hunt?

.