5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

[Canada_bangs]

I'm really not trying to step into this Eggman like trap of a debate but I have to wonder. I don't think he's being black or white with the aoe thing. I took it as the boss didn't have good tells to let the player know what they need to do.. without dying. It is a one hit to DPS and Healers. Melees have the worst of it cause most of the time you're in a groove and boom ko like ryu fighting M.Bison on 12 stars in super champ. I'm not saying he saying everything needs an aoe marker.. but he's saying the way the coin was designed was that it was designed badly.Atleast thats what I'm getting out of it.

Like his animations don't match to what he's going to do? That's how I'm taking what Goji is saying. And as a melee player I WISH I knew what he was doing before he did it. I got smashed. And yes.. that's only happened once but still.

And as far as comparing other action games to this mmo... thats abit unfair. Action games - The good ones anyway- make a point to let you know whats what. They have too. As you have to react faster then you should be able to react. So things like animation and poses come into greater effect there. Think of Devil may cry or a Sonic game. sonic unleashed. None of those games would work with XIV's design logic. They are too fast of games. I don't even trust XIV's animations or AOE markers cause XIV has this issue where you have to react ahead of time. Looking at the animations doesn't work.. you'll get hit. You have to move a few seconds BEFORE the aoe marker vanishes. Ugh... I got more invested in this then I was posed too. All I'm saying is unless I missread his intentions is this. I don't think adding the aoe is dumbing it down or a bad thing. It literally is a trap if you're new tho. It got me and alot of other people. Do I think it's bad... it may be. But I also don't get hit by it again so if that was the intent from SE then I guess good job. I dunno... I think I'll just walk out now. - DON'T HATE ME T.T -

[kaynide]

Re: Coincounter (The Rage continues!)

I mean, there needed to be a lesson somewhere that some mobs don't use telegraphs. Did it need to be a boss? Sure, fine, whatever. BUT there could have been lesser versions in an earlier dungeon that were just "harder" trash mobs (think Marlboro level difficulty in Aurum Veil). Or, alternatively, keep the mechanics as is, but only have them deal a very survivable but shocking amount of damage (say 80% max hp to a healer at iLVL).

[Goji1639]

If you really think its your lack of alliance raid experience that causes me to call you unqualified to make these assertions I feel like maybe you should log off the forums and enjoy a few moments of introspection.

(Cause theres plenty more)

Can you imagine doing the new nier raid? There are so many things without blatant, orange floor indicators... how did any of us make it through?

You're just being dense now, likely on purpose but maybe not.

The point isn't just about floor indicators specifically and the point was never me saying that Coincounter, or fights similar to him, are entirely unbeatable. It's just bad design, period. I've played enough video games to be "qualified" to say that; whereas you seem to have very little familiarity with anything that isn't an MMO, or specifically this MMO. It's easier to assess gameplay when you've seen a lot of the best and worst; and I'm guessing you haven't played many legitimately difficult games.

[Goji1639]

And as far as comparing other action games to this mmo... thats abit unfair. Action games - The good ones anyway- make a point to let you know whats what. They have too. As you have to react faster then you should be able to react. So things like animation and poses come into greater effect there. Think of Devil may cry or a Sonic game. sonic unleashed. None of those games would work with XIV's design logic. They are too fast of games. I don't even trust XIV's animations or AOE markers cause XIV has this issue where you have to react ahead of time. Looking at the animations doesn't work.. you'll get hit. You have to move a few seconds BEFORE the aoe marker vanishes. Ugh... I got more invested in this then I was posed too. All I'm saying is unless I missread his intentions is this. I don't think adding the aoe is dumbing it down or a bad thing. It literally is a trap if you're new tho. It got me and alot of other people. Do I think it's bad... it may be. But I also don't get hit by it again so if that was the intent from SE then I guess good job. I dunno... I think I'll just walk out now. - DON'T HATE ME T.T -

lol, you seem to at least understand the point, so maybe I should just talk to you.

The attack is basically a "trap" for new players, and situations that leave you with no information; nothing to react to; no means to successfully deal with it right then and there; etc. are just bad design. Games that are good at this kind of thing make successfully dealing with mechanics difficult, but ENTIRELY possible based on the information and tools you have available. Even if that information is an attack animation that happens in a split second, you still have the tools and information you need to evade it, or survive the hit and adjust, right then and there.

Now MMO's are different, but the principle is still the same. You may have to provide people with different tools and information because of MMO gameplay limitations, but you still have to give them everything they need to succeed in that moment. If you don't it's just laziness or incompetence.

[Goji1639]

Re: Coincounter (The Rage continues!)

I mean, there needed to be a lesson somewhere that some mobs don't use telegraphs. Did it need to be a boss? Sure, fine, whatever. BUT there could have been lesser versions in an earlier dungeon that were just "harder" trash mobs (think Marlboro level difficulty in Aurum Veil). Or, alternatively, keep the mechanics as is, but only have them deal a very survivable but shocking amount of damage (say 80% max hp to a healer at iLVL).

Enemies that "don't use telegraphs" should never 1 hit kill. The lack of a telegraph is only acceptable if you're given the opportunity to learn and adjust throughout the course of the fight.

[Canada_bangs]

Enemies that "don't use telegraphs" should never 1 hit kill. The lack of a telegraph is only acceptable if you're given the opportunity to learn and adjust throughout the course of the fight.

Now this I'm two sided one.. on one hand I do agree with that. On the other hand I think it depends on how it's done. If I'm correct you are trying to say it should've been programed better correct? They had the right idea, but the animation he does before the move doesn't match. You don't NEED the aoe to get the point accross, at the same time he needed better more to the point animations if they didn't want to put an AOE marker there. They have done this in the 24 mans and various other bosses. They just goofed on coin I think.

[Veis_Alveare]

You're just being dense now, likely on purpose but maybe not.

The point isn't just about floor indicators specifically and the point was never me saying that Coincounter, or fights similar to him, are entirely unbeatable. It's just bad design, period. I've played enough video games to be "qualified" to say that; whereas you seem to have very little familiarity with anything that isn't an MMO, or specifically this MMO. It's easier to assess gameplay when you've seen a lot of the best and worst; and I'm guessing you haven't played many legitimately difficult games.

My dude, you don't get to talk about difficulty when difficult content to you is like what... story mode trials? The Mist Dragon? I mean you don't raid, you haven't done 24m raids, I assume you're also missing normal mode raids and any current EX trials? You have absolutely no idea about most of this game. I don't care if you oneshot every boss in Dark Souls, it would make you exactly 0% more qualified to speak on this subject.

Come on back and have a chat when you're able to maintain uptime and your rotation while also performing constant and potentially varied mechanics. I'm very willing to bet you can't even do one or the other because both take practice.

You want to be able to judge things in XIV when you're legitimately one of the least knowledgeable people about it that I've seen on the forums. Of course Coincounter seems like he needs AoE indicators to you, you've done almost nothing that has visual tells so you aren't used to looking for them.

A giant wind up and the word "swing" is more than enough to tell you to get out. If it isn't, and you die, next time you see the mechanic it will be. That's one of the ways learning happens.

[Goji1639]

Now this I'm two sided one.. on one hand I do agree with that. On the other hand I think it depends on how it's done. If I'm correct you are trying to say it should've been programed better correct? They had the right idea, but the animation he does before the move doesn't match. You don't NEED the aoe to get the point accross, at the same time he needed better more to the point animations if they didn't want to put an AOE marker there. They have done this in the 24 mans and various other bosses. They just goofed on coin I think.

For simplicity, I'll just say it boils down to always making sure there's a way to successfully to deal with any mechanic during the fight.

Using Coincounter as an example, there's 2 things they could do with him to "fix" his mechanic. The first is obviously to add a tell that informs the player of where the attack is going to land. The second is to allow the player to survive the attack at least once, to provide them the opportunity to recognize the attack and adjust.

Either thing provides a way to succeed at the mechanic during the fight, which is something that any good mechanic needs. I mean, they could make the reaction needed to avoid it so air tight that most people fail it anyways and it would still be a good mechanic; it only needs to offer players the information they need to succeed.

[Goji1639]

My dude, you don't get to talk about difficulty when difficult content to you is like what... story mode trials? The Mist Dragon? I mean you don't raid, you haven't done 24m raids, I assume you're also missing normal mode raids and any current EX trials? You have absolutely no idea about most of this game. I don't care if you oneshot every boss in Dark Souls, it would make you exactly 0% more qualified to speak on this subject.

Come on back and have a chat when you're able to maintain uptime and your rotation while also performing constant and potentially varied mechanics. I'm very willing to bet you can't even do one or the other because both take practice.

You want to be able to judge things in XIV when you're legitimately one of the least knowledgeable people about it that I've seen on the forums. Of course Coincounter seems like he needs AoE indicators to you, you've done almost nothing that has visual tells so you aren't used to looking for them.

A giant wind up and the word "swing" is more than enough to tell you to get out. If it isn't, and you die, next time you see the mechanic it will be. That's one of the ways learning happens.

lol, I'll talk about difficulty because I play legitimately difficult games. You play this, so difficulty isn't really in your lexicon.

I'm just explaining to you the mechanics behind creating real difficulty. Stuff with no tells that 1 hit kills you isn't difficult; it's just a cheapshot that only works once. It's lazy design that undermines the effort that goes into creating real challenge.

I don't need to know about most of THIS game to know that Coincounters mechanic is bad design; I just need to be familiar with Coincounter.

[Veis_Alveare]

lol, I'll talk about difficulty because I play legitimately difficult games. You play this, so difficulty isn't really in your lexicon.

I'm just explaining to you the mechanics behind creating real difficulty. Stuff with no tells that 1 hit kills you isn't difficult; it's just a cheapshot that only works once. It's lazy design that undermines the effort that goes into creating real challenge.

I don't need to know about most of THIS game to know that Coincounters mechanic is bad design; I just need to be familiar with Coincounter.

You have zero understanding of difficulty in this game because you're basically playing hello kitty island adventure, it's unsurprising you think a Ohko is hard.

Get good, scrub.