I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Bright-Flower]

My stance on dungeons is and has always been:

I prefer big pulls and getting it done quickly, but when you queue with randoms you accept that not everyone can or wants to play like that. You're going to get people who don't want to or cant' handle wall to wall pulls for whatever reason. You're going to run into people that want chests in POTD.

You need to go into the duty knowing you'll eventually run into other playstyles and be ready to deal with that. If you're matched with a party that wants to take it slower, that's something that could happen. If you're going to be inflexible and insist the party do things your way, form a premade and then queue in. Otherwise be ready to roll with whatever cards the duty finder throws your way.

[Veis_Alveare]

There is a distinction between efficient play and rushing. If you are pulling more than one mob taking note the healer can manage said mob set and nobody is pulling ahead of you (or the tank), then its efficient playing.

If the healer or DPS is going ahead of the tank to pull things then that is rush play. If this happens, then the tank just has to make sure their AoEs don't touch the extra mobs. When the rusher dies, they will either leave or stop playing - then you kick.

Are we honestly still getting "you pull it you tank it" in current year?

You should watch this.

This is blatantly refusing to participate and anyone doing it should be kicked and reported.

[Penthea]

Are we honestly still getting "you pull it you tank it" in current year?

I mostly play healers and I still see this happen. If the tank chooses to tank whatever extra was pulled by someone else then I'll heal it. If they don't then I won't...because in the past very often when I did heal the player that pulled the extra untanked pack I got aggro, ended up dying and then we wiped. Better off just letting that one person die. I can res them and we can continue. And before anyone says a tank who doesn't protect their healer is bad, I have seen people get hit really hard within a second of pulling an extra pack and if they don't get topped up often the next hit will just kill them. Not everyone who pulls extra packs knows how to kite and kiting isn't much help if the mobs have ranged abilities.

Personally it does not annoy me if a tank refuses to deal with a pack that most certainly wasn't pulled by accident. In my experience when such pulls happen the player who pulls extra doesn't say ANYTHING. No warning, no request, nothing. It is frankly really rude to just assume people will play however you want and that you have a right to force them into doing it without having the basic decency to say anything about it in advance.

If a person is so fussy that they want to do dungeons in literally only one way, then get a premade group instead of hoping or expecting everyone else in the game to have the exact same preferences, experience and skills that you have.

[tdb]

You should watch this.

Why is it that everything has to be made in video format these days? It seems the graphics are purely filler; he's just reading an essay on top of some gameplay footage. Funny that he chose to use trials as the backdrop to talk about an issue which doesn't apply to trials.

This is blatantly refusing to participate and anyone doing it should be kicked and reported.

So a DPS running off and doing their own thing by pulling more is completely fine, but a tank doing their own thing by tanking one pack at a time is a grievous offense?

[Nestama]

So a DPS running off and doing their own thing by pulling more is completely fine, but a tank doing their own thing by tanking one pack at a time is a grievous offense?

It's actively choosing to do nothing once the DPS returns with the pack. It's petty and if the healer and other DPS don't notice, then they get KO'd as well (thus causing a wipe that could be easily prevented if the tank ->). A simple AoE rotation to grab the mobs is all the tank has to do and once that's dealt with, the tank can speak up and ask the DPS not to do that. However if the tank notices there were no issues with having a second pack added to theirs, they should consider doing bigger pulls. Especially if they're in level 50/60/70/80 dungeons.

[Kiarin]

Not tanking mobs that dps or healer pulled in is wrong and rude, but pulling them is also wrong and rude, maybe even more.

If you wish to go faster, for the sake of all good n' holy, say it. The party, once again, should be a democracy. When you express an opinion ("faster/slower"), it can be decided together if majority is pro or contra that.

I've seen multiple times how a sprout tank was doing his best with middle pulls and then died because his teammate got cocky and pulled more. When you descend from the shining reaches of Expert Roulette, you will see a lot of new players like that.

And, once again:
- There can be a tank/healer who finished E8S solo, knows all his CD's and XYZ of every mob in a dungeon, but simply doesn't want to go fast.
- And he has all the right for it.
- He isn't even obliged to have and/or present any reason for this wish.
- But! He must know a collective decision of the party on the speed and, if it stands against his wishes, either adjust or leave.

[Nestama]

Not tanking mobs that dps or healer pulled in is wrong and rude, but pulling them is also wrong and rude, maybe even more.

I'd say it's tipped the other way. Choosing not to tank extra mobs pulled by the DPS or Healer can/will cause a wipe (since the DPS and/or Healer are most likely AoEing the first pack, which means they're now on the extra mobs aggro table). Pulling mobs for the tank can go in two different directions, though. One can cause a wipe, but will hopefully show the DPS/Healer who pulled that what they did was wrong. However if everything is killed, then the tank now knows they're with a group of people who can handle/prefer big pulls.

[tdb]

It's actively choosing to do nothing once the DPS returns with the pack. It's petty and if the healer and other DPS don't notice, then they get KO'd as well (thus causing a wipe that could be easily prevented if the tank ->).

It sure is, but sometimes that seems to be the only thing those people will understand. This one time back in Stormblood I was healing in St. Mocianne's Arboretum and got a tank who just didn't tank. He ran most of the dungeon without tank stand and pulled single packs (which was just as well since the DPS were tanking about half the mobs). I told him several times during the run to turn on tank stance and start behaving like a tank, to no avail. I warned I'd get him kicked. Eventually we arrived at the final boss and he hadn't tanked a single pack properly. He also hadn't rolled on any loot, so I had to do the petty thing by staying out of the fight and forcing a wipe. Fortunately one of the DPS was my FC-mate and from the chatting during the dungeon I knew the other one to be on board with me. When the wipe happened the loot timer had expired and we were able to kick the non-tank. We then proceeded to kick the boss's ass with a SAM tanking, and it was more interesting than usual because I actually had to pay attention to healing.

I'm fine with running a dungeon at the tank's pace, however fast or slow that might be. If the tank is new, disabled, drunk, undergeared or just bad and can't hold aggro but is at least trying, I will do my best to cover for their mistakes and keep everyone up. I'll give summaries of boss tactics if asked and will tell what went wrong if we wipe. But this one guy was so clearly just using a tank class to skip queue while actually playing DPS, and didn't even say anything during the entire dungeon, that I refused to give them a free completion.

[BadLala]

I have a question to tanks that say they can't do more than one pack. How do you know you can't handle more than one pack?

1. Is it because you tried it and the party wiped? That doesn't mean you can't handle more than one pack. It only means something went wrong and you didn't bother trying to figure out what it was and decided that you can't do more than one pack. Maybe what went wrong was a very simple reason that you can easily fix (e.g. I didn't know how to use my mitigations properly, which is an issue that's easily fixable and doesn't require a hardcore playstyle to do).
2. Is it because you're new to tanking, to the dungeon or to the game in general? That's fair. But you're not gonna be a new player forever. If people are doing it easily (as they say), then why not try out for yourself and try see if you can do that and if not, try to figure out what went wrong (back to point 1).
3. Is it because you like to take things slowly? I'd need to know more about this one, since it depends on what you mean by "slowly".
   • If slowly means in a way you can handle it without feeling overwhelmed, then doing two packs isn't really gonna affect you. you'll only be pressing an extra skill or two. The DPS (if they're using their AOEs) won't really do any significant extra work with the extra pack nor will the tank. The only thing different is that you're getting hit more and might press an extra button or two. The healers on the other hand are the ones who will feel the difference IMO (I'm not a healer so I can't tell how much). If we're talking wall to wall, then I won't disagree here. Some have the skill to do it, others don't. Even OP said they can do more than one pack, but not wall to wall. Here I can understand someone saying they don't have the skill to do that.
   • If it means as slow as possible time wise, then you're dragging the group down. And they have the right to kick you if they don't want that. It's not a matter of skill now. Just because a dungeon is 90min, it doesn't mean they have to spend the 90min inside.
4. If it's because the healer can't handle it or can't keep you alive, then that's fair. But it doesn't mean you don't have the ability to do big pulls if you get a better healer.
5. If it's because you don't have good gear, then it's not a matter of you lacking the skill in this case as well. Once you get the gear, this won't be an issue anymore.
6. If there's a condition that's preventing you, then I don't think anyone here would disagree that the group should do small pulls in that case.
7. If it's "I'm the tank and the leader, and I set the pace of the group!" then make your own group, leader!

I'd like to know if there are any other reasons that genuinely boil down to a player's skill, and not something that can be easily fixed by simple adjustments or pressing an extra button.

[Penthea]

So a DPS running off and doing their own thing by pulling more is completely fine, but a tank doing their own thing by tanking one pack at a time is a grievous offense?

The tank only exists to satisfy the whims of other players, even when those players are making a very bad decision. It's a slave role in which you're expected to do whatever you're told or silently given to do, and if you don't or complain then you're a bad tank. They should just remove party chat from tanks. It clearly exists as only a novelty because their job is to shut up, adjust and obey. If you want any scrap of free will play something else. The tank role is not for you if you want to have any say in how anything is done. Only healers and dps are granted this privilege.

/s in case that wasn't obvious

However if the tank notices there were no issues with having a second pack added to theirs, they should consider doing bigger pulls. Especially if they're in level 50/60/70/80 dungeons.

This I can get behind, though I'm still not fond of the idea of being like "hey tank here's some extra stuff for you to do and you better do it or you're bad!". It really isn't that hard to ASK someone to do something before you just force them to do it. Party chat exists for a reason. Why not use it?