I am going to say something unpopular . . .

[Driavna]

If you vote kick for pull style, it better have a "hey can we go faster/slower please?" preceding it or it's vote kick abuse and should be reported.

The idea that there is only a single correct way to play this game is toxic and starting to make people avoid the game because of the way the community feels about it. If you can't set aside like 30 minutes for a dungeon, then do it another time. All the hostility about "wasted time" (We're playing a game?) is just bewildering. People rush to the detriment of the game at the cost of "well it's wasting my time if we go too slow!" is just...I don't get it.

Y'all need to learn to chill a little more.

Falls under: "differences in playstyle". No one is supposed to enforce their playstyle onto others. If 3 out of 4 want to go slower/faster that person needs to adapt or reach some kind of compromise, not doing so could lead to a justify kick.

My opinion about "is just 5m more": there is a big difference to clear 99 times a primal in 10m compared to vs 15m. It's why people bail from certain "farm parties" and I get it. For a regular day, that extra 5m from each duty could lead to an extra hour. Some players out there have limited time to enjoy this game (for whatever reason), however, since they are "evil incarnated" it's ok to portray them as "soulless pricks" so... who cares?

IMO players should communicate more and try to reach a compromise. If no possible, because is my way or the highway mostly, then people like that should stick to a premade. Of course, is not going to happen because DF is extremely convenient and anyone can be easily replaced thanks to it. Besides, everyone knows that the only important person here is me and everyone else needs to adapt to me.

[Ceridwenae]

If you can't see how your actions may feel to someone on the receiving end - and I mean if it's actually part of a condition you have yourself - this is where you could be running into issues with this scenario. Then I'm not qualified to advise, but I believe there are people who are, and if you fall into this category, so to speak, you probably have an idea of where to look for that. If you don't have a condition and are lacking empathy or perhaps just some imagination, then all of my words are for you.

It still all boils down to the fact you can't dictate someone else's reactions. You can say to not worry if you're kicked and honestly, your advice to not take it to heart isn't terrible, but you just can't control how it feels to another person - and it doesn't matter whether they, or you, or anyone else in between is right or wrong or anything else in between. You can write on this forum and say "when I kick it's not personal" or "when I was kicked it was not personal" (how do you know? They may have hated your glamour), but this matters little to some of the people you've kicked because you've not told them directly. They may never read this. And even if you did tell them, it still doesn't matter to how the other person feels. You can say oh, no, it shouldn't matter to them, but that's irrelevant if it does. You cannot control their reaction. Stop trying. Or, if you care enough, be more thoughtful in how you deal with others and consider a much, much wider range of emotion and experiences than you currently do. Stop gimping yourself into such a narrow range.

This is not to say don't kick, or that you have to run with people whose playstyles don't mesh with yours. You don't. The game gives tools, you're already using them and presumably in a non-malicious manner. Some people are going to be upset, some people aren't. Either you care to address the former in a kindly manner, or you don't. Some of us are saying you're not addressing it in a kindly manner - explicitly if you pick on certain conditions or disabilities - and perhaps this is upsetting to you, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up (what thread number ostensibly on this topic are we now on?). Either adjust your own way of doing things and broaden your horizons to include differing attitudes, experiences and abilities, or alternatively, take your own advice: don't take things to heart if someone gets upset with you. After all, you don't care about them anyway, do you?

It's your happy fun time. It's limited. Use it wisely.

EDIT: Oh, this turned out to be a bitter post. Let's just say I'm quite disappointed this thread devolved into another one of those threads. Edited to do a first paragraph.

[Awha]

It was not my intent to have the thread turn into large verse small pull thread. I will admit I did purposely deviate from the original premise since I did not want to seem like I was purposely alienating a certain portion of the community. Also, if my posts come off as me being upset that others may view me harshly or judge me negatively that is also not the case. The original purpose of the thread was to voice my stance and also gain an understanding as to why given certain circumstances people tend to react differently to what in my view is largely the same issue. I do understand that is it very difficult to change the actions or views of another human being. Though my goal was not mean to alter how someone feels per se towards the another person or to belittle or undermine how one possibly may react to a given situation, in this case being removed from a group.

Whatever one feels in that moment towards someone that has removed them is real, though my issue mostly stems from how one goes about it. I have seen cases in not just issues regarding groups, but on other topics be it housing, missing genders, hide glamor request to name a few. For some reason it seems that people tend to create negative image of a person that is often based around their own interruptation of the situation or comments made by the person. Which confuses me since I get what someone might feel is genuine anger or frustration towards being removed, but is right to use ones own feelings on the matter to come up with their own conclusions as to what the intent was behind the action? As you and others have mentioned one can tell another person how they should react and that was not my goal though I do see how I came off like that. What I wanted to come across was how we can only control and know for a fact how we personally feel unless the other party explicitly mentions why they did something. We have only our own personal inferences as to what happened, and I do not feel it is fair to frame others pr look at their actions under a self constructed lens so to speak since at that point we are looking at the case from a bias point of view.

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying people should not feel upset or however they do when removed. Though the genuine truth is unless someone states otherwise we have no real proof if an action was personal or not. We can infer to a degree, but even then it is difficult to say if the action was done with malicious intent.

Granted I still stand by what I said in the OP, though I should have framed it better since it is true generally even from my own personal experience most do not use their own limitations as a crutch be whatever they are, and most do try to raise above them when it is within their power and ability to do so. I have juggled with the idea to reword the OP, but I do not want to seem like I am back peddling. I stand by it, but my wording did make it seem like I was targeting certain groups simply for existing, and that was far from my intent.

When I create threads like this it is often because I wish to gain further understanding into reactions between people I do not funny understand or comprehend. I wish to understand them, as such I do often beat a dead horse and talking with me can be fairly frustrating since simple concepts like compassion and empathy by in large go over my head. So when people try to explain to me that is just how people are that further raises questions and perpetuate my curiosity.

Overall I guess this has less to do with the removal per se and more so why at the very least in situations like this, housing, missing gender, glamor hide option it is okay to frame the response of others in such a way that may create a negative image but fills in the missing pieces with their own interpretation instead of asking for clarity. I get in the removal case it is hard because who wants to go and ask their group hey why did you guys remove me. Though I still think that does not give the person the reason to use tbeir negative encounter to frame someone in an objectively negative way without knowing the facts. Just as I do not think it is fair to frame people who use ACT as horrible people or toxic just because they are using a tool.

I hope that clears up some things. I am not happy it became another size of pull thread I was trying hard to avoid it, but I also did not want to keep using my original cases cause I saw how that could been seen as targeting.

[Ceridwenae]

<3

I hope that clears up some things. I am not happy it became another size of pull thread I was trying hard to avoid it, but I also did not want to keep using my original cases cause I saw how that could been seen as targeting.

I think you've actually gone out of your way to expand on what you're saying, honestly. My post above wasn't aimed at you because whether you like it or not, you're needing more than what can be reasonably delved into in a forum like this. So - with respect - what you're asking for is help and advice tailored for you specifically and this is not the place to get it. This is why I mention in my above post that you may be best served locating some external advice, especially when you can sit down face to face with someone much more qualified than us randoms on this forum. We can talk about game stuff, sure, and skirt around quasi-psychological reasons for why any of us does anything, state of the game and whatever else, but you're asking about something much deeper than this and because it's going to go into things you've admitted to finding difficulty with, you're better served and deserve to find someone who can explain it and guide you through what it is you need assistance with. You might not like this answer, but this is not the forum you are looking for and your answers are not here. We are fluff at best. You need something more.

I hope you get it figured out, and should you ever magically find yourself on the Light data centre, pay me a visit and I'd happily shoot the proverbials with you. For what it's worth, asking the questions is always better than not, even if we don't like the answers.

[Veis_Alveare]

You need something more.

Imagine implying that someone is a sociopath for kicking people in a video game.

There is nothing here about lacking the ability to empathize. I'm sure people I've kicked have been bothered. That sucks. They have feelings, I'm aware of this. So do I. Their feelings don't magically matter more than mine. I don't want to waste my time just so someone else gets to play badly when the obvious solution here is for them to do better.

To be the absolute most clear I would prefer (as would almost everyone else I'd wager) to not have to kick people for poor performance. It would be preferable to be able to have an actual conversation and explain what they're doing wrong to help them improve. That's a way I would happily spend five minutes because even though it's five or ten minutes it isn't a wasted five or ten minutes but rather an investment in their future parties to not experience the same issues. SE (and the gcbtw as a whole) has made it's so that giving advice is the riskier option, not me or other players who value a basic level of competence.

If you want to play armchair psych why don't you delve into the levels of narcissism required to believe that because you (royal you) want to RP walk through a dungeon at a snail's pace that other people are obligated not to kick you and instead to commit their time to your desire?

[AngelCheese77]

As I read through this topic, I find it strange that those who want “fast runs” tell everyone else to use a PF or go with friends.

But why don’t those who want “fast runs” do the same? I run into “fast run” people always in DF that expect the DF to cater to them. Not once have I seen a kick to those who have said they are learning or first time in a dungeon.

What makes those “fast run” people more important? Cause sure seems like it. (And don’t give me the “majority are fast runners” without proof as thousands upon thousands of players don’t use these forums)

As for the anxiety issue ... oh boy. I agree with an above poster that there are people who use certain things as an excuse to play like poo. But it also screws those with the actual issue over. It’s dumb but has been happening for hundreds of years to get out of things.

So here is my advice as a person who has been diagnosed with a real anxiety and depression issue for 25 years.

1. If you’re having a poo day from your issues, don’t play an MMO. Take care of yourself
2. If your issue is there but not overwhelming, try something relaxing in an MMO like fishing or crafting or solo. Don’t do things that could push you over that lune
3. Since FF14 allows multiple classes on one character, try different ones. I main WHM which I love, but if I’m not feeling up to it, I’ll switch to a DPS

As for the other issues, I ain’t touching them. Heck, while I was playing another MMO, I was removed from a party cause I wouldn’t give a complete stranger I just met my Discord handle. Lost all my progress in that dungeon and loot. So yeah, it sucks, it’s upsetting, but it’s also a game.

Thise players didn’t deserve your awesomeness anyway.

[Veis_Alveare]

Snipped for length.

We can all only speak from personal experience. It's completely asinine to expect someone to have a way to "prove" that the majority of players want to get through dungeons quickly.

What we can do is look at all the rewards SE has locked behind dungeons and infer that the reason you can get all of these rewards is because SE wants people to repeat this content rather than play through it once and call it a day. There aren't nearly the same sort of incentives to do any other content as much as dungeons; raids work on a weekly timetable, so do alliance raids while current. Trials are spammable but the only ones to do that with are EXs since normal ones yield no real rewards.

So why among all the casual content in the game can I get so many rewards for dungeoning? There could easily be one daily roulette called "dungeon roulette" similar to trials/alliance/normal raids/etc. but instead there are four.

We need a carrot on a stick to get us to replay these things. SE sees that, that's why there are so many carrots worth so much stuff. And don't act like they don't understand the concept of proportionally appropriate rewards - just look at Main Scenario Roulette.

With all this pointing towards the idea that the devs know we need a reason to find ourselves replaying Tam-Tara Deepcroft for the thousandth time would it come as a shock to find out for many people they just want the content they're doing for the reward to be over quickly and painlessly? No. No, it would not.

Plenty of people are going to just go with the flow no matter the pace of the dungeon they're in but if you're really not even up to trying to move things along a little faster then I think you should take your own advice and chill or do some non-combat stuff that day.

[Goji1639]

Snip.

Honestly, whatever the "default" is for the community doesn't matter anyways. The only thing that matters is what that specific group wants to do in that specific run.

Nobody has to queue up expecting to follow some unwritten rule that some whiny brat on a forum made up; they just have to be willing accept a group consensus.

If you're the tank and the entire group wants you to speed up then you should attempt to. If you still refuse then accept the fact that you may get vote kicked. On the other hand, if you're a Healer and you want the tank to speed up, but he says no, and no one else in the group cares, then leave or shut up and heal. Don't hang around and nag or argue.

When you queue up with randoms there is no style of play that's going to be off limits. It will ALWAYS depend on what people you were fortunate/unfortunate enough to be paired with. If you have a real issue with how the run is going then attempt to get a group consensus, but otherwise a lot of people in this game really just need to deal with what queuing for a random team actually means.

[Ceridwenae]

Imagine implying that someone is a sociopath...

I did not. I'm really sorry if you think that's where that was going. Let me clarify in a moment. I will just say there are a fair few conditions which can cause impairment with empathy, and it can vary from person to person regarding the degree they are affected.

There is nothing...

At first it can indeed look like a lack of empathy or imagination to just say kick people it doesn't matter - not your exact words of course, I am generalising, but to bring it to you individually, now you've expanded your view it quite clearly isn't that and that clarification helps so much. If you say things like that first, it presents the point much better - so I have learnt, I think, that for you it's not that you have only your way or the highway, it's just you have had some biteback and whilst you want to help others, you have recognised sometimes you can't and find it frustrating. You prefer to stay in your lane because it's significantly more rewarding and would like others to be up there with you, but it becomes problematic when they just aren't and perhaps don't care to try and don't respond well to your attempts to get them up to speed. This is a good thing, because having come across your posts previously I have not had this information and I thought, "that's quite a hardcore person". But you actually do care, and it's heartening. And don't worry, I haven't read all your posts or stalked you - I just remember very strong or seemingly opposing opinions (it's how I learn!) and link them with avatars and I am not ashamed to say I believe I was wrong about you - if I'm still wrong correct me, but if it's too personal, just ignore. I understand. It's really not the place for it. If you do want to chat about more relating to personal experiences, gaming or otherwise, however, I can make an alt on your server and swap contact info. I can chew over those kick or not to kick moments with you, and it's a judgement free thing. But if nothing else, I would say don't worry about the people that complain, so long as you state your case for a kick and it is good and reasonable, that there are records which back you up.

But Awha was asking about why someone might in particular feel upset, and to go into that sort of thing is probably too varied to talk about here in meaningful depth because, well, I just think they're asking for a greater discussion than we can commit to here. It felt it would stretch far beyond what was pertinent to FFXIV. They said they were interested in learning why people do what they do (I am, too, which is why I put forth my thoughts on this in this manner) so I thought they would get my meaning regarding seeking outside sources for a more in-depth look at human behaviours. They also mentioned they had trouble with recognising some aspects of nuance and had a specific and definitive world view, and so I'd respectfully argue a gaming forum isn't a great place to learn about people in depth - only the surface reactions because we really can't go into all the deep reasons why people do the things they do. There's so many unspoken rules and grey areas which may vary from society to society and bubble under the radar. This is what I meant when I said they needed more - they need somewhere/someone where the range and depths of human emotions and experiences can be fully discussed freely. We technically can't do that here, and I've often found it more beneficial to have those talks in person (I often ask my husband WTF did X do Y?! Frankly, he's a saint) than online where we can fluff up our intents and misread things so easily (witness mine and several others responses to Awha, and yours to mine, for example). So if Awha goes external - or I guess another forum dealing specifically in either sociology or psychology may be okay, they may get a better read on what they're asking, and in turn, be able to apply it to people's reactions in our game.
Additionally, in person we can usually communicate much better (or via things like Skype or just voice in Discord can make a lot of difference), and we don't have a forum ToS or similar to skirt around. So I will apologise if my words made it seem I was saying otherwise, but my experience has taught me that you cannot really run the gamut of emotion in any sensible fashion on a gaming forum. The regular forum PvP demonstrates this rather well.

- and of course! I can have read Awha's posts completely poorly and ineptly. I have been wrong before, I'm not afraid to be so again. It's how I learn! <3

If you want to play armchair psych why don't you delve into the levels of narcissism required to believe that because you (royal you) want to RP walk through a dungeon at a snail's pace that other people are obligated not to kick you and instead to commit their time to your desire?

This made me laugh, because as you can probably imagine, I'm so comfy in that armchair and I'd actually love to talk in depth about this! - but you'd have to look me up somewhere that wasn't a gaming forum (see above about swapping info if you want, it might be illuminating, it might even be a laugh? Let me know in a reply somewhere here if you want to do this) for really chewing this one over, for the reasons I mention above (also, I'm a lot more sweary in person and that situation requires it). I would *love* this. And you made me remember when a guy in my D&D old Neverwinter Nights game group did this in one of our game modules (so this is in essence for the uninitiated was a player-made add-on to the original NWN pc game, coded to be a D&D style adventure)- walked everywhere because his character was wearing heavy full plate so it made sense to him to do so. It wasn't until we told him OOC that it was less than fun and he didn't do it again. And that was an RP game! Haven't RP'd since 2006. Memories. Thank you. <3

But in all seriousness, you'd be quite within your rights to kick someone like that. I would! But only if they persisted after asking them to behave. I would think they'd have a hard time justifying their actions to a GM if it came to it, particularly if dealt with by the rest of the party in a polite way.

Oh, gods, my word count and that text wall. I'm so sorry, I hope it made some sense. Take it apart, especially if you think I'm on the wrong track entirely. I am making lots of time to talk about this because I think it matters.

[AngelCheese77]

Love how your reply makes no sense in regards to replying to me. Why I hate snipping it all out

Your first point can easily be seen. Just look at the many replies to the other “unpopular thought” post where so many “expect” fast runs. Hmmm HMMMMMMM

As for your last point, not sure what you are implying about me needing to “take my own advice”.

As well as other points I bring up were ignored. Eh whatever. I’m dealing with a hurricane aftermath rn so can’t play anyway!!

We can all only speak from personal experience. It's completely asinine to expect someone to have a way to "prove" that the majority of players want to get through dungeons quickly.

What we can do is look at all the rewards SE has locked behind dungeons and infer that the reason you can get all of these rewards is because SE wants people to repeat this content rather than play through it once and call it a day. There aren't nearly the same sort of incentives to do any other content as much as dungeons; raids work on a weekly timetable, so do alliance raids while current. Trials are spammable but the only ones to do that with are EXs since normal ones yield no real rewards.

So why among all the casual content in the game can I get so many rewards for dungeoning? There could easily be one daily roulette called "dungeon roulette" similar to trials/alliance/normal raids/etc. but instead there are four.

We need a carrot on a stick to get us to replay these things. SE sees that, that's why there are so many carrots worth so much stuff. And don't act like they don't understand the concept of proportionally appropriate rewards - just look at Main Scenario Roulette.

With all this pointing towards the idea that the devs know we need a reason to find ourselves replaying Tam-Tara Deepcroft for the thousandth time would it come as a shock to find out for many people they just want the content they're doing for the reward to be over quickly and painlessly? No. No, it would not.

Plenty of people are going to just go with the flow no matter the pace of the dungeon they're in but if you're really not even up to trying to move things along a little faster then I think you should take your own advice and chill or do some non-combat stuff that day.