I am going to say something unpopular . . .

[Awha]

Who is forcing someone to do something? If someone wants to run content they are their by choice. It isn't considerate to kick anyone from any party - DF or PF. Does it need to happen sometimes? Yes, it does (DF really rarely is it actually needed I've personally found, and PF there are usually specified conditions stated - before you join - that will prompt a removal from part). But it's never considerate.

And what do you mean forcing someone to do something they don't want to do? That just sounds controlling and cringey to me.

Sorry not the best at explaining things prob should have this in the OP. Say if a tank is doing smaller pulls and the griup is fully capable of doing larger pulls. The group is in a tough spot either they be considerate towards the tank and go at a pace the overall group is not comfortable with. Or they pull ahead of the tank putting the tank in a tough spot forcing them to make a choice to try and meet the standards of the group in question or risk being judged harshly for not being able to do large pulls.

Or take the easier route and just use the vote kick feature to remove the person. By in large I would removing someone is fair more considerate.

[ItMe]

Say if a tank is doing smaller pulls and the griup is fully capable of doing larger pulls. The group is in a tough spot

Honestly?
It's such a minor problem that if you're the one who can't deal with it you should probably leave.
There is no "tough spot." The content is easy enough that you're gonna clear it. If the extra few minutes are that important to ones life maybe they shouldn't sign up in roulettes and get inevitably matched with casual and regular players.

[Awha]

Honestly?
It's such a minor problem that if you're the one who can't deal with it you should probably leave.
There is no "tough spot." The content is easy enough that you're gonna clear it. If the extra few minutes are that important to ones life maybe they shouldn't sign up in roulettes and get inevitably matched with casual and regular players.

Though who are we to say a group might find taking a extra 5 min as a minor issue? Sure for some it might, but for others it may not be the case. That has been what I have been trying to express the why matters veryy little because it differs greatly from person to person. So it is largely impossible to be considerate towards one side and not the other by allowing one side be it the fast or slow side to dictate the pace for the rest of the group in question.

[jameseoakes]

Though who are we to say a group might find taking a extra 5 min as a minor issue? Sure for some it might, but for others it may not be the case. That has been what I have been trying to express the why matters veryy little because it differs greatly from person to person. So it is largely impossible to be considerate towards one side and not the other by allowing one side be it the fast or slow side to dictate the pace for the rest of the group in question.

If you kick someone because it might cost you 5 min is just abusing the kick feature and you really need to learn to play nicer with others as honestly you just sound like you are kicking out of spite in that case

[Shofie]

If you vote kick for pull style, it better have a "hey can we go faster/slower please?" preceding it or it's vote kick abuse and should be reported.

The idea that there is only a single correct way to play this game is toxic and starting to make people avoid the game because of the way the community feels about it. If you can't set aside like 30 minutes for a dungeon, then do it another time. All the hostility about "wasted time" (We're playing a game?) is just bewildering. People rush to the detriment of the game at the cost of "well it's wasting my time if we go too slow!" is just...I don't get it.

Y'all need to learn to chill a little more.

[Penthea]

Isn't the more considerate action between forcing people to do something they may not want to do or removing them from the group. Be removing them from the group?

My disability is invisible. Unless I happen to be wearing a splint or any other form of arm supports people tend to not have any clues that something is wrong with me, and if I am wearing long sleeves they often still won't spot them anyway. I do use a tens machine but all that anyone sees is a small section of wires coming out from under my t-shirt that they tend to assume is for earbuds for listening to music on a phone. Most days when I'm out in public at a glance I look like everyone else.

I don't bring it up unless it's relevant to the conversation or unless I need to inform someone of why I cannot do a task. When you're disabled you realise that many people's ideas of what a disabled person is are incredibly inaccurate. I've been told "you can't be disabled, you look fine!" and then I have to explain that I look fine because they're seeing me on a good day and I'm not in a wheelchair or using crutches because it frankly would do nothing to help my arms which is where my mobility problems lie. I've also had to explain that just because I can move my arms normally does not mean I am unable to experience pain or numbness. I have seen people with anxiety being told "you don't have anxiety, I see you laughing and talking like a normal person" because they have it in their heads that people who suffer from that are incapable of expressing much outside of shyness, fear and sadness.

If I were to go into DF and start right away with saying something like "hey I'm disabled so go easy on me please if I make a mistake" it is highly likely that at least one person if not the entire rest of the group is going to imagine that I am something I'm not. People who don't have much experience with disability, whether not having to deal with it themselves or out of knowing no one who has one, tend to think up the worst possible scenario when someone they don't know and can't see says they're disabled. So if I inform a group of strangers I literally just met about my disability they're very likely to imagine I'm going to be a terrible player and they will have to carry me. And some may think I'm lying so I can get away with being lazy.

So while you are correct that people have the right to not play with someone if they don't want to, you have to remember that it is highly possible that someone would refuse to play with someone disabled as a result of an incredibly inaccurate mental image they have about disabled people.

The best way to deal with being disabled is to be responsible about it. I mentioned before that I entirely avoid pugs on a bad day. It would not be fair for me to knowingly go into content when I'm highly likely to perform badly and force others to deal with it. My raid team knows about my disability so they know that it comes with limitations such as how long I can raid for per day. My fc members are aware that if I don't log in a lot for a period of time it is because of my health and not because I am losing interest in the game or the fc. The people who need to know, know. For random people in pugs I do my best to ensure that my disability will not be a hindrance to them whether that's playing with arm supports and my tens machine on, or completely removing myself from the equation by not even queuing at all. And on days when I'm not feeling great but also not very bad I either choose to only do easy pug content or group up with people I know. In short I adjust my activities to what I'm able to do.

It's people who lie, exaggerate, use disability as a crutch to be permitted to do far less than they're capable of, or are irresponsible enough to go into content that they know they cannot do who give people like us a bad name. A person who handles their disability responsibly would not often be in the position in which they have to inform pugs of their condition. You can tell a white lie as an explanation for a hiccup, and you can just leave if your condition unexpectedly flares up badly. Which is something I have had to do a few times in the past but it is exceptionally rare now that I am very much aware of my limitations.

So in a way your thread is kind of pointless? Yes there are irresponsible disabled people who feel that people should just lay down the red carpet for them and have others consistently work harder just for them, but it isn't only disabled people who do this. There are players out there who are simply selfish and/or lazy who do the exact same thing to others and say things like "I only play for fun" or "I'm casual, stop being elitist" in an attempt to be permitted to perform poorly without repercussions.

Everyone, disabled or not, should adjust their activities to their capabilities and take measures to be in a position to play better if they want to do more difficult content. Whether that's making sure you know how your class works and practicing enough that you can perform well, or like me who uses a tens machine, arm supports and an ergonomic mouse which all vastly increased my capabilities with gaming.

People should also face their limits. If you can't do certain content because you simply cannot increase your skill no matter how hard you try, or your disability creates an impossible wall, then accept that you cannot do the content. And if you're adamant about doing it anyway find people who are fine with your degree of performance. There are people out there who don't have a problem with carrying someone as long as the person has good behaviour and is honest about the reasons why this needs to happen. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to force random people to carry them regardless of the reason. Be a responsible considerate person no matter who you are and what battles life throws at you.

[Awha]

Difference of play style in the past has been a valid reason for removal. Do not think that has changed over the years. As one said in the grand scheme you can play the game many different ways. I am not here to judge how one chooses to play, but if a group in question wants to do something a certain way should my own individual method trump the groups? That seems extremely selfish and not very considerate to the rest of the group members.

My disability is invisible. Unless I happen to be wearing a splint or any other form of arm supports people tend to not have any clues that something is wrong with me, and if I am wearing long sleeves they often still won't spot them anyway. I do use a tens machine but all that anyone sees is a small section of wires coming out from under my t-shirt that they tend to assume is for earbuds for listening to music on a phone. Most days when I'm out in public at a glance I look like everyone else.

I don't bring it up unless it's relevant to the conversation or unless I need to inform someone of why I cannot do a task. When you're disabled you realise that many people's ideas of what a disabled person is are incredibly inaccurate. I've been told "you can't be disabled, you look fine!" and then I have to explain that I look fine because they're seeing me on a good day and I'm not in a wheelchair or using crutches because it frankly would do nothing to help my arms which is where my mobility problems lie. I've also had to explain that just because I can move my arms normally does not mean I am unable to experience pain or numbness. I have seen people with anxiety being told "you don't have anxiety, I see you laughing and talking like a normal person" because they have it in their heads that people who suffer from that are incapable of expressing much outside of shyness, fear and sadness.

If I were to go into DF and start right away with saying something like "hey I'm disabled so go easy on me please if I make a mistake" it is highly likely that at least one person if not the entire rest of the group is going to imagine that I am something I'm not. People who don't have much experience with disability, whether not having to deal with it themselves or out of knowing no one who has one, tend to think up the worst possible scenario when someone they don't know and can't see says they're disabled. So if I inform a group of strangers I literally just met about my disability they're very likely to imagine I'm going to be a terrible player and they will have to carry me. And some may think I'm lying so I can get away with being lazy.

So while you are correct that people have the right to not play with someone if they don't want to, you have to remember that it is highly possible that someone would refuse to play with someone disabled as a result of an incredibly inaccurate mental image they have about disabled people.

The best way to deal with being disabled is to be responsible about it. I mentioned before that I entirely avoid pugs on a bad day. It would not be fair for me to knowingly go into content when I'm highly likely to perform badly and force others to deal with it. My raid team knows about my disability so they know that it comes with limitations such as how long I can raid for per day. My fc members are aware that if I don't log in a lot for a period of time it is because of my health and not because I am losing interest in the game or the fc. The people who need to know, know. For random people in pugs I do my best to ensure that my disability will not be a hindrance to them whether that's playing with arm supports and my tens machine on, or completely removing myself from the equation by not even queuing at all. And on days when I'm not feeling great but also not very bad I either choose to only do easy pug content or group up with people I know. In short I adjust my activities to what I'm able to do.

It's people who lie, exaggerate, use disability as a crutch to be permitted to do far less than they're capable of, or are irresponsible enough to go into content that they know they cannot do who give people like us a bad name. A person who handles their disability responsibly would not often be in the position in which they have to inform pugs of their condition. You can tell a white lie as an explanation for a hiccup, and you can just leave if your condition unexpectedly flares up badly. Which is something I have had to do a few times in the past but it it is exceptionally rare now that I am very much aware of my limitations.

So in a way your thread is kind of pointless? Yes there are irresponsible disabled people who feel that people should just lay down the red carpet for them and have others consistently work harder just for them, but it isn't only disabled people who do this. There are players out there who are simply selfish and/or lazy who do the exact same thing to others and say things like "I only play for fun" or "I'm casual, stop being elitist" in an attempt to be permitted to perform poorly without repercussions.

Everyone, disabled or not, should adjust their activities to their capabilities and take measures to be in a position to play better if they want to do more difficult content. Whether that's making sure you know how your class works and practicing enough that you can perform well, or like me who uses a tens machine, arm supports and an ergonomic mouse which all vastly increased my capabilities with gaming.

People should also face their limits. If you can't do certain content because you simply cannot increase your skill no matter how hard you try, or your disability creates an impossible wall, then accept that you cannot do the content. And if you're adamant about doing it anyway find people who are fine with your degree of performance. There are people out there who don't have a problem with carrying someone as long as the person has good behaviour and is honest about the reasons why this needs to happen. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to force random people to carry them regardless of the reason. Be a responsible considerate person no matter who you are and what battles life throws at you.

I agree with what you are saying, and people should take their own limitations into account, and plan accordingly. I suffer from EDS. On a good day I simply need a crutch on another day I need a wheel chair, on rare days I do not need anything. I tend to keep my issues to myself largely using means of not posting under my main, or only telling people I trust etc. . . because I have been viewed as you mentioned as being lazy or in other cases people have let me get away with playing subpar and carried me through the content as a means of being nice.

Also in an ideal world people would be understanding, but boils down a large difference between knowing and understanding. I get the optics of the thread seemed focus on those with disabilities, though by in large the reason as to why someone may play a certain way does not seem important. Since the why can vary from person to person and if people start to give a pass to one why it leaves open people to abuse and misuse.

In the grand scheme what I am saying largely boils down to taking personal responsibility and not seeking to get tilted when things do not go a certain way. Granted, this does not mean i think people should suck it up and just do something became well random is random.

Removing someone in itself is not toxic, the option is just a tool that can be used by players to have some control over their play experience and alter it after the fact. What I do not get is why some feel it is okay to push one method because they personal find an extra 5 min trivial, and that they should accept it. When on the same token they find it is cool to just go at the pace of the one.

I am not saying we should threat people like shit, but the reality is we have very little power when it comes to altering how they see people.

in short I am kind of confused probably because I worded it poorly but what you are saying is what I was trying to express. Though for some reason it seems for many the consideration only goes one way, yet not the other way.

It really sounds you are abusing vote kick if you are kicking people over so petty a issues. By the time you've kicked them and got a replacement you have cost yourself more time than they would cost you and the only reason you seem to be actually kicking them is because the don't play you demand. If you can tolerate such small differences in play then you need to play with pre-mades.

I get what you are saying, and for you it may be petty but for someone else it may not. It is one a one size fits all thing. Though speaking for myself if I queue solo and a group does something I do not like or want to do i just leave and do something else. I am not good at teaching or giving advice, explaining game mechanics .Though I will admit if I queue with a friend or two and we do not have a full preamde I will vote the person out that does not mesh because I am not going to leave them high and dry.

Do not get me wrong I have been petty and used recuse to try and speed things up before the 5 min timer, I am not saint and I am a jerk by most peoples standards.

By in large the time difference may not matter to some, I am not going to pretend to understand the reason why someone does or wants things the way they do. Though does it matter in the grind scheme? I do not think so all that matters is at times we run into people that others just do not want to be around. Sure in IRL we may be forced to deal with people we do not like due other factors. Work, school related etc . . . but within the game world we are not held by the same constraints so to speak.

[jameseoakes]

Difference of play style in the past has been a valid reason for removal. Do not think that has changed over the years. As one said in the grand scheme you can play the game many different ways. I am not here to judge how one chooses to play, but if a group in question wants to do something a certain way should my own individual method trump the groups? That seems extremely selfish and not very considerate to the rest of the group memebers.

It really sounds you are abusing vote kick if you are kicking people over so petty a issues. By the time you've kicked them and got a replacement you have cost yourself more time than they would cost you and the only reason you seem to be actually kicking them is because the don't play you demand. If you can tolerate such small differences in play then you need to play with pre-mades.

[Veis_Alveare]

It really sounds you are abusing vote kick if you are kicking people over so petty a issues. By the time you've kicked them and got a replacement you have cost yourself more time than they would cost you and the only reason you seem to be actually kicking them is because the don't play you demand. If you can tolerate such small differences in play then you need to play with pre-mades.

Kicking people isn't just about you but also about them.

I was kicked from an expert roulette like a month ago. Load in, Grand Cosmos. No new player message. Tank stands there at the first pull. A dps and I (on whm) kept going because like... honestly who does that? It didn't even occur to me that the tank wasn't still running.

Anyways, tank doesn't come to me and he dies. We finish everything off because the dps who stayed back ran to me after the tank died. Tank respawns. A similar situation with the second pack with us all kind of meeting in the middle between the big hall with the two sword guys as and the pack of floating enemies.

Was kicked as we approached the boss. Got a /tell from the good dps right after that they bailed after I was kicked. We proceeded to queue together for expert again, got a normal tank and cleared faster than we likely would have if we'd still been in that first group.

Our playstyles were different. Them kicking me meant neither of us needed to compromise on how we wanted things to go.

I'm not saying there aren't malicious kicks out there but I don't consider that to be one. I may think that tank is an idiot for single pulling but I don't fault him at all for kicking me. We didn't match up and frankly I wouldn't have let him single pull if I'd remained in that instance. Instead of that being a confrontation it's resolved nice and quick with no harsh words.

[Awha]

Kicking people isn't just about you but also about them.

I was kicked from an expert roulette like a month ago. Load in, Grand Cosmos. No new player message. Tank stands there at the first pull. A dps and I (on whm) kept going because like... honestly who does that? It didn't even occur to me that the tank wasn't still running.

Anyways, tank doesn't come to me and he dies. We finish everything off because the dps who stayed back ran to me after the tank died. Tank respawns. A similar situation with the second pack with us all kind of meeting in the middle between the big hall with the two sword guys as and the pack of floating enemies.

Was kicked as we approached the boss. Got a /tell from the good dps right after that they bailed after I was kicked. We proceeded to queue together for expert again, got a normal tank and cleared faster than we likely would have if we'd still been in that first group.

Our playstyles were different. Them kicking me meant neither of us needed to compromise on how we wanted things to go.

I'm not saying there aren't malicious kicks out there but I don't consider that to be one. I may think that tank is an idiot for single pulling but I don't fault him at all for kicking me. We didn't match up and frankly I wouldn't have let him single pull if I'd remained in that instance. Instead of that being a confrontation it's resolved nice and quick with no harsh words.

Thank you for being able to explain what I have been trying in a much better way then I could ever.