"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Vahlnir]

Unlikely that you’ll bother to read this since this post is a few days old and I have no idea if you’re even still in this thread—but I’m reading through all these posts and wanted to comment. This advice is actually incorrect. And I don’t know if you’re the one who gave it or someone else—or if your comment in parentheses belongs to you. If it does, then you are actually wrong, too.

DNC AOE is a gain at 2 mobs. Windmill is 150 potency per enemy with no falloff, and Bladeshower is 200 combo potency to all enemies with no falloff. At 2 enemies, that’s 300 potency + 400 potency, which is greater than your Cascade > Fountain combo that only sits at 300 potency. And AOE procs, when proc’d by Flourish, are supposed to be used on single targets because they’re free damage. You haven’t wasted GCDs procing them with your AOE combo; they were given to you via Flourish for free. Especially since Rising Windmill is 300 potency—same as Reverse Cascade—and Bloodshower is 400 potency—same as Fountainfall. At 3 or more mobs, you actually let your single target Flourish procs fall off because AOE beats them.

The general rule of thumb is that AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs, but there are exceptions. BRD is another that is a gain at 2+ mobs for Quick Nock over Burst Shot and Rain of Death over Bloodletter.

I'm not knowledgeable enough with DNC to know the inner workings. It would appear that I have responded with bad advice and assuming that the way it worked for most classes was the way it worked for all of them. Clearly, that is incorrect. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I do feel, however, that ignoring ALL advice and just assuming it's bad is a poor way to handle things though, like the person you responded to has.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm not knowledgeable enough with DNC to know the inner workings. It would appear that I have responded with bad advice and assuming that the way it worked for most classes was the way it worked for all of them. Clearly, that is incorrect. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

It's all good! I'm not as knowledgeable with some of the other DPS jobs, so I get it. But now you've learned something new, and you can apply that advice in a better way in the future. ^^

[RyuSaarva]

Months? People were clearing it on the first day. Even the hardest fight in raid, TGC, was well telegraphed with simple mechanics that just really hurt everyone instead of just the player. The problem was, when some players were literally told exactly what to do, they simply refused to do it because of their own ineptitude. It wasn't hard, people just have a tendency to not listen and play with blinders on.

some people clear pretty much anything on day one but mostly it was just wiping and vote abandons, only now it can be cleared pretty easily after multiple nerfs + casualbringers nerfs.

[Doozer]

I saw a few attempts at abandons here and there back when Orbonne was first released, but I wouldn't really consider it widespread. Just a few quitters. The same people who prefer to do LotA for roulettes instead of anything else; they want easy and they want fast. They couldn't do it while watching Netflix or get carried the whole way while tanking the floor, so they would try to ruin it for everyone by voting to abandon.

Overall, it really wasn't that hard. It was just new, so people who didn't know couldn't get carried by the people who did because the ratio of knowing to not knowing wasn't high enough to drag their corpses through it and still succeed.

[LaughingBanana]

Pretty sure these forums are 99% toxic elitists.

Hahaha.

Though 99% seems such an exaggeration, I do start to somewhat think that it is so.

[Lucy_Pyre]

some people clear pretty much anything on day one but mostly it was just wiping and vote abandons, only now it can be cleared pretty easily after multiple nerfs + casualbringers nerfs.

You don't get to call Thunder God hard and then call ShB 'casualbringers' my man. That's like trying to say that Mist Dragon is/was hard and that's just laughable.

[Doozer]

You don't get to call Thunder God hard and then call ShB 'casualbringers' my man. That's like trying to say that Mist Dragon is/was hard and that's just laughable.

For once I agree with you on something. I knew calling it "casualbringers" after that rubbed me the wrong way. I think this person has a really skewed perception of what makes things difficult.

[KarstenS]

Its actual fact that a party full of "grey parses" can clear savage, as well as likely even ultimate.

I stopped here, as this "fact" is just wrong.

Savage and Ultimate bosses have so called enrages. You need to meet a required amount of damage in this time to be successfull or the entire party will instantly wipe.

So for every player that performs beolow this minimum requirement (in general the grey parses), you need other players that perform ahead this requirement.

With a party full of grey parses you will not clear any current Savage or any Ultimate.

[cicatriz313]

Also people have to realize parse rankings are all relative. Like a Grey parse is still a clearing parse, so a Grey parse in ultimate is probably still a pretty decent player. A party full of Grey parses is basically clearing with the minimum dps required but it still has to hit that minimum dps, which a lot of players won't be able to do.

[Veis_Alveare]

I stopped here, as this "fact" is just wrong.

Savage and Ultimate bosses have so called enrages. You need to meet a required amount of damage in this time to be successfull or the entire party will instantly wipe.

So for every player that performs beolow this minimum requirement (in general the grey parses), you need other players that perform ahead this requirement.

With a party full of grey parses you will not clear any current Savage or any Ultimate.

A lot of it depends on when you got that grey parse.

Like right now - I leveled an alt to be able to play on another DC, that alt started out with a combo of i480 crafted and the miseria stuff. Despite still playing on a job I'm decent at (like 75% average/95% best across Verse on my main, I'm not amazing but I'm competent) my parses on this alt were uh... not 95% on my first go through. My rotation was functionally the same (other than a bit of sks altering things) but I didn't get the same resulting damage because gear is bad and at this point people have been doing parse runs for months.

If you have 100 clears on a fight ranging from 10k dps to 20k dps and they're spread perfectly evenly over that range everything from 10k-12.5k will be grey. When you start saturating the higher end of that with more and more parses (as happens at the end of a tier, through gearing up and parse runs) the "bottom 25%" of any given job is going to grow.

A 15k parse back when we just had 100 clears was a 50% but with saturation it'll be in the bottom 25% pretty quickly.

So yes, technically the statement "a team of grey players can clear" is factual... but they can't clear on release or in a timely fashion. Early clears that have grey numbers in them demand a ton of extra work from the rest of their parties and they're almost exclusively due to deaths. It's also worth saying that rankings won't be created for a fight immediately, it needs enough clears. You aren't automatically both the top and bottom ranked player on a job (and thus technically grey) if you clear a fight first, you just aren't immediately ranked.

tl;dr: people don't understand percentiles apparently, or the way any of the data they casually talk about is structured.