Yoshi-P Sanpo comments re: Bard

[gumas]

yep brd get damage buff, at least thats what the translator say.

was hoping some change on the skill but i take any upgrade at this point.

btw, monk finally getting rework (translator say want to rework the GL system) *fixed*

[reyre]

yep brd get damage buff, at least thats what the translator say.

was hoping some change on the skill but i take any upgrade at this point.

btw, monk is getting rework again lol

Im sorry "again"? when was the first time MNK got a rework?

[gumas]

wops my bad, i forgot that was SHB where everyone getting new stuff, i keep misremember it as rework lol.

*fixed*

[reyre]

wops my bad, i forgot that was SHB where everyone getting new stuff, i keep misremember it as rework lol.

*fixed*

Sad part about that is that MNK did not get anyhing *new* NEW just worse version of what we had, somehow....

[Rai_Takara]

Why is double melee ok but double caster or double ranged not ok? As long as you bring 1 of each role you will always have a double.

Because double caster and double ranged imbalances the comp and makes raid design bad. Naturally, double caster and double ranged makes raid easier, and if you start taking that into account, making raids harder for that comp, then double melee comps will be even harder. As a result, that's why SE is encouraging double melee comps while still allowing other comps, which is the best way to handle it.

why is bard being superior in multi target situations a problem ?

Because if their ST gets buffed enough, like it might with the next patch, then it might also be too strong overall and the obvious pick if there is any multi targeting involved. Though maybe BRD won't be buffed to MCH level so it might be token buffs but who knows.

[Akiudo]

Because if their ST gets buffed enough, like it might with the next patch, then it might also be too strong overall and the obvious pick if there is any multi targeting involved. Though maybe BRD won't be buffed to MCH level so it might be token buffs but who knows.

good thing i adressed exactly that both in my original post aswell as in the next paragraph following the one you quoted than. while were at it, can you please crusade against dancer being the obvious pick for speedruns ? i mean you seem to have a problem with a class being clearly superior, even if its just under specific circumstances and potentially for a single fight, so one out of 3 physical ranged being in 93% of top 50 groups among the whole raidtier surely is terrible and fail design. btw while we're at it, on average only around 13% of these groups used scholars, and lets not even talk about warriors. but i guess these things are fine because whatever.

so again, i know i'm repeating myself but it matters jack if one class is clearly superior in a single fight or whatever, the vast majority of groups can't and won't change their lineup on a per fight basis, and if you're part of a group that would do so than so be it, groups that would make their dancer/mch go bard because he brings 0,5% more group dps on one out of 4 fights are exactly the kind of groups that got dancer up to a 93% participation rate for the top 50 speedruns among all fights in the current raid tier, so please don't act like the current "balance" offers these groups any kind of choice.

[Rika007]

Because double caster and double ranged imbalances the comp and makes raid design bad. Naturally, double caster and double ranged makes raid easier, and if you start taking that into account, making raids harder for that comp, then double melee comps will be even harder. As a result, that's why SE is encouraging double melee comps while still allowing other comps, which is the best way to handle it.

Except SE isn't encouraging double Melee comps, if anything they are considering double whatever you want as anything that enforces four people close to the boss (like light rampant) is absolutely random about who it chooses. And almost nothing about raid design has taken into effect ranges mobility and used it as an advantage. They haven't done it in years. Nothing about double ranged or caster is inherently blocking SE from making better raids. If anything they have proven that last spot is as flexible as a team wants it to be.

[Liam_Harper]

As for the Bard example, look at the 95th/99th (where parties can utilize BRDs buff the most). At max BRD gets edged out by dancer but we all know dancer has the highest max potential thanks to RNG so all it takes is to get a good run a long with your team/partner to do that.

I am. I see Bard third from the bottom despite a near-perfect situation to multi-dot and benefit. A blue 60th percentile SAM would still beat that 95th percentile Bard and that's a significant gap.

SAM is a hard job to optimize, but Bard really isn't far off. Like I said, it's incredibly easy to leak damage as a Bard. Where SAM is well designed is that you can contribute reasonable numbers even if you aren't on a perfect rotational loop and optimizing Meditate/Seigan, but amazing numbers if you do. So it's easy to pick up and do fine with and very rewarding to master.
A class like Bard is absolutely rubbish played badly and can scrape low tier damage played flawlessly. That's not rewarding. You are getting far too little for the tax you pay.

[Cetonis]

Since we've gotten some splinter of detail that we are in fact just getting basic number buffs (presumably meaning no charges), let's talk about the collateral impacts of buffing different skills, beyond obviously total dps going up.

GCDs

Burst Shot - The main side effect here is that it makes snapshotting DoTs worse, by increasing the gap between Iron Jaws and your filler GCD. +10p here won't really change anything on that front gameplay-wise, but a bigger buff might.

Refulgent Arrow - Buffing RA would slightly increase our busrt via Barrage, and otherwise not do a whole lot besides make our output a little more random.

Stormbite, Caustic Bite, Iron Jaws (initial damage) - I'm presuming they would buff all three of these in tandem. As discussed in OP, because there's room to buff Iron Jaws by quite a bit here, there's a chance to substantially strengthen DoT snapshotting here. As for the two bites, buffing those would primarily mitigate Bard's new target weakness a little, with no significant impact otherwise.

Apex Arrow - Unless they buff it by quite a lot, I would not expect anything to significantly change. We'd get a little more creep on the fringe cases where we can gain by holding a full Apex or using it at 90-95 around Raging or other buffs, but that's a pretty small deal and will continue to be if it's just like a +100p or +150p kind of buff.


Abilities

Pitch Perfect - This would be a surprise, but if for whatever reason they went this route, it'd be a mixed bag. On the one hand, it'd increase the payoff for maximizing WM time, which is nice. But on the other, it'd increase our RNG and also exacerbate the various end-of-WM QoL problems.

Bloodletter - Unless PP is buffed in tandem, a buff to Bloodletter would be a sign that they have no intention of ever giving it charges. That'd be a terrible omen, and there would be no gameplay benefit - only an exacerbation of the biggest problem in the kit (EA under MB).

Empyreal Arrow - One of the most common newbie Bard mistakes is to lose track of EA in the midst of mechanics, so I feel like the main impact of a buffed EA would be to punish that more. Yes we're grumpy about the microscopic skill gap right now, but this doesn't feel like the way it should manifest.

Sidewinder - As talked about in OP, Sidewinder neatly lines up with party buffs, so a large buff to SW would nicely enhance our group synergy.

Song hit damage - This would just be SE waving the white flag on having no clue what they want to do.


Cooldowns / traits

These wouldn't fit the "scattered potency buffs" description, but it's so vague/limited that we might as well imagine some of these being options:

Battle Voice - Could wind up going to 2 minutes. Impact is pretty obvious, it'd make Bard less prone to "bad kill times" and more in line with the meta burst timings.

Raging Strikes - Making Raging stronger seems simple enough to be on the table, naturally it would mainly enhance our burst but could also have Apex or DoT snapshot implications.

Army's Muse - Cynically, I'd be shocked if SE realizes that they should make this 15 seconds, but hey you never know. As per OP, Muse at 10 seconds exacerbates the QoL mess at the end of WM, so this would be a sneaky smart change.

[BloodRubyXII]

That is what having a Team of Battle/Class Designers is for. There is a multitude of feedback for them to parse and discern a concrete direction to take the job in in an attempt to fix it. "Players haven't given us concrete suggestions" is just a way for the Devs to pass the buck. It has to stop.

Agreed. You will never find a more passionate group of players than ones on MMORPGs, especially optimisers. The amount of work people have put into sites like Bole and Akh Morning, and the Balance Discord all of those guides, google docs, spreadsheets like holy mother of god. Even WoW's top players don't go that deep, and this isn't even a game where optimizing is on the same level or as important. So I know without even researching it any Bard suggestions put forward were probably extremely deep with examples to back them up. I know it's the JP forums they run to first for backup but they're even more brutal than we are so I know they've probably gone into it too. BRD is just entirely centered around that stupid WM/RS window with not much interesting things to do or get more of outside of that, is this really the vision for the job they wanted? Bard does have it's place. Honestly in early prog I like Bard because I am not as reliant on RDPS to have an impact, but obviously the more comfortable the encounter becomes, the stronger dancer gets as I'm no longer using the higher personal DPS (which isn't even that much higher) as a crutch. Every pull has different decision making and different instances of small bursts on Dancer which means they are capable of making Bard as interesting as it once was and simply don't, almost like it's their design for the job to be training wheels for learning how a cycle and priority system works - and it's just sad.