Yoshi-P Sanpo comments re: Bard

[MPNZ]

I think people are unhappy with BRD because of its low damage contribution. BRD would be in a better spot if it was a selfish dps like MCH and had its songs changed from party-wide to self-buffs.

It's partially its overall damage contribution and that of the entire ranged physical category as a whole. But, shifting the whole role into being selfish-DPS classes would just end up circling like back to its issues at launch: Lore deletion, false advertising, and being too selfish and lacking in party support

[Akiudo]

It's partially its overall damage contribution and that of the entire ranged physical category as a whole. But, shifting the whole role into being selfish-DPS classes would just end up circling like back to its issues at launch: Lore deletion, false advertising, and being too selfish and lacking in party support

it also wouldn't change the problem as long as overall dps is not raised, i know some people are big on the whole "selfish classes" topping the meter, but there is no real reason why selfish classes should have both the highest personal and highest raid dps contribution, at best there is nothing that necessites as much, at worst it just ends up in "supporting clasess" allways being worse.

of course things like actual utility support (so things like curing waltz, armys paeon, useless as it is..., maybe give bard the regen song our teacher used in a class quest with the next addon?) should count somewhat against total dps, but talking purely on a "has dps buffs" level theres zero reason why total raid contribution should be lower than on a "pure" class.

so no, bard would not be in a better spot if it was a selfish dps, bard would be in a better spot if its dps was raised, doesn't matter if through personal damage or group buffs.

[Risvertasashi]

Not that these suggestions are bad or anything, but if the devs want a quick fix, all they gotta do is unnerf bard's DoT damage. Even if that also means reverting the songs (though I'm not sure this is necessary; anyone theorycrafted those numbers?). Bard was in a better state in 5.0 than in 5.1 and onward.

This doesn't solve greater issues like class identity, that dancer and machinist both have firm niches while brd is just a crappier version of both, etc, but it'd be better than just ignoring bard as they did in 5.2. And with that sanpo comment, I'm now worried they'll do the same for 5.3....

[Cetonis]

They couulllld, but part of the idea here is very explicitly hoping that they select buffs that are more productive than just making numbers go up.

A DoT buff would only serve to make Bard better at the things it's already good at, when there are glaring areas of weakness for the job's ability to output damage. And it'd also fail to address any of the notable QoL issues, noob traps, anti-synergies, etc. that clutter the kit right now.

[Rai_Takara]

IDK. BRD has been, like, an AOE demon for a while, but just that in itself wouldn't necessitate further nerfs which where acceptable, even if unnecessary, outside of the DoTs which were totally unnecessary. If anything the numbers in general need to crunched downwards and rebalanced to like shorten the DPS gap, or buff other jobs to compensate, or vary the damages incurred to NPC based on their scale because Physical-Ranged is already below or falling short of the perceived minimum required damage values. The launch version of AST was super bad enough in terms of DPS to say the least

As a dancer myself, I think ranged are perfectly fine being the lowest dps as our role is easiest to fulfill in general. Now if our jobs get more complex and we have to use our mobility to do our dps, then I can see it being warranted to be higher, but right now, the 1% buff keeps us relevant and that's okay.

As for BRD, it being too strong with AoE means SE can't make raids with AoE or multi target for fear of BRD being too strong again. Look at E6S, where they made the two target portion split so that people can't double up on damage. Similarly, look at E7S, with the 3 adds, that skyrocket BRDs performance too much. If BRD was as strong as the other ranged then they'd be the only pick for TEA as they'd be strong in both multi target and single target portions. I'm concerned with the current BRD implementation means that it can't be good at single target AND multi target without some adjustments. I'd rather it be strong single target since that's most fights and lose the multi target strength to be more in line with other ranged DPS.

[Sauteed]

I haven't read all the suggestions but a lot of comments here are pretty good. My specific suggestion about bard is about Apex Arrow.. and the only things I would adjust about it are.. take it off the global cooldown, and second let us store up to 125 in the gauge instead of 100, and if you have more than 100 points in it, it will only take up to 100 points. That would help the skill substantially, while not over powering it. Sometimes when I'm going spam happy with my AoE's I just feel like it isn't worth it to shoot an Apex arrow off, versus what else i could do in my 2 second window. And my keybinds might be all over, but I'm usually spamming quick noct and reign of death as it refreshes, and using the mouse to hit pitch perfect when that lights up if I got say Wanderer's minuet on. So I have to either quit slappin quick noct, (sometimes monsters are not lined up good enough fro apex to make up what quick noct will tag), to hit apex arrow, or potentially miss a pitch perfect "proc" to slide the mouse over to hit Apex.

There are all kinds of other things I'd break down about bard and adjust, but the biggest one is just the way Apex arrow is handled. It doesn't feel like it should be my level 80 ability. Like not at all. It feels like it needs adjusting, and maybe be a level 71 skill or something, as it is. I don't even like the name Apex Arrow XD

[Yani-Madara]

This has been said about Apex Arrow in other threads but seems it needs to be repeated.

It would be better as an Ogcd and gaining full power at 50/100 instead.

It feels annoying and tacked on having it as a gcd.

[Cetonis]

Oh we all hate Apex Arrow outside of dungeons. I expect it will sort of solve itself in 6.0 though, since a single-target gauge spend is all but a given, and presumably would be an ability because otherwise you could Barrage it. In turn, obviously depending on numbers I'd guess that Apex itself may need three targets to be usable, causing the gap between Bard single target and two-target to narrow.

And really that's sort of the big power spike re: challenge content design for Bard, as when it comes to mass AoE, usually things are too short-lived for Bard to get a lot out of multi-DoT'ing and other jobs' bursty AoE is pretty good.

So AA in my mind is sort of... I feel like SE isn't going to touch it because in their minds there's a long term replacement already planned, basically. As annoying as that is in the short term.

[Liam_Harper]

As a dancer myself, I think ranged are perfectly fine being the lowest dps as our role is easiest to fulfill in general.

I don't have that experience myself. I find Samurai easier to play than Bard. The moments where you have to step away from the boss entirely are extremely rare and I get Mediate, enhanced enpi and a gap closer to mitigate that. I'd see melee as being almost as mobile. The rotation isn't particularly complex, while Bard is fairly high APM and has all sorts of opportunities to leak damage. Not to mention I can play my Sam badly and smash my Bard on dps even if played well. That makes it a very easy class to provide good contribution with, while I'd struggle as Bard.

There also seems to be a misconception that ranged phys dps can chill somewhere off in Narnia and run laps of the arena where no mechanic will ever touch them. Fights don't work that way, both ranged and melee have responsibility when it comes to mechanics. If you're sitting miles away in the corner as Bard, you're losing rdps because you aren't keeping everyone in song radius and you can miss people with Battle Voice.
The ranged tax feels far too high for what amounts to a fairly minor benefit.

You used Bard as an example on e7s, while it's in the bottom 3 and about 1500 rdps behind Sam even at high tiers where the Bard is multi-dotting adds and taking full advantage.

[Rai_Takara]

I don't have that experience myself. I find Samurai easier to play than Bard. The moments where you have to step away from the boss entirely are extremely rare and I get Mediate, enhanced enpi and a gap closer to mitigate that. I'd see melee as being almost as mobile. The rotation isn't particularly complex, while Bard is fairly high APM and has all sorts of opportunities to leak damage. Not to mention I can play my Sam badly and smash my Bard on dps even if played well. That makes it a very easy class to provide good contribution with, while I'd struggle as Bard.

There also seems to be a misconception that ranged phys dps can chill somewhere off in Narnia and run laps of the arena where no mechanic will ever touch them. Fights don't work that way, both ranged and melee have responsibility when it comes to mechanics. If you're sitting miles away in the corner as Bard, you're losing rdps because you aren't keeping everyone in song radius and you can miss people with Battle Voice.
The ranged tax feels far too high for what amounts to a fairly minor benefit.

You used Bard as an example on e7s, while it's in the bottom 3 and about 1500 rdps behind Sam even at high tiers where the Bard is multi-dotting adds and taking full advantage.

The difficulty in melee is always optimization. No job is hard when you're not optimizing it to the fullest and that's by design, following something akin to the 80-20 rule where 20% of the effort gets you 80% of the result. SAM, funnily enough since you mentioned it, is the hardest melee to optimize right now around buffs because it's the most inflexible melee with a very strict rotation. However, if you play SAM and don't try to align with buffs, then of course it'll be easier. Same can be said on Dancer whether having a NIN or not makes Dancer boring or engaging. One might say that's just the top end players and not the majority and that's correct, but balance must always come down from the top end.

Not being glued to melee range is a tremendous advantage. Of course you don't have to be in Narnia, but being able to resolve any mechanic with 100% uptime is not something you can dismiss. Ranged tax is a thing for good reason. Groups are able to leverage mobility with bad, easy strats to get through mechanics but still have enough DPS to meet checks.

As for the Bard example, look at the 95th/99th (where parties can utilize BRDs buff the most). At max BRD gets edged out by dancer but we all know dancer has the highest max potential thanks to RNG so all it takes is to get a good run a long with your team/partner to do that.