Major flaws in healing design.

[Daniolaut]

People don't "know what you mean", they know what you say.


Yet you have no issue cyber stalking some random WHM :



Which is the exact reason I had no qualms about looking at your character. Have you ever heard the phrase "When you're digging yourself a hole, just stop?" That's you right now. You're digging yourself a hole. You clearly have just one thing you'll accept and that healers have somehow wronged you. At this point you're just going to be another person on my ignore list.

Except you absolutely failed to say why you want to know my details. You have no reason to know them.

This healer was in my party, and when asked to heal, refused, and I watched people die.

All I did was check one page. I didnt "cyber stalk" them. I didnt send them tells, I didnt do anything beyond just seeing why they refused to heal.

I have also been on the forums trying to discuss why people think being 99%+ players makes them good, when things like this constantly happen, and they call themselves "god" and disrespect everyone else constantly for absolutely no reason. Then when confronted with logic and reason, their only response is to name call and block.

I have not insulted people, I have only said the truth, and the best to my knowledge, and people just can only respond by saying "troll" and the gibberish you just posted in your first response.

Then when I start having a dialog, for no reason you just cry and say its time to block.

By all means, go right ahead, you've only avoided each very specified context, and couldnt deduce the connection of a GCD and the word "hardcast" and what I was saying that I saw them doing.

So please, you're doing me a favor by blocking me on the forums.

Again, all I did was check the healers logs and blacklisted them so they cant join my party finders.

You failed to say what you would do with my information. This is the forums, not the game. You dont need my ingame info.

Healers are the most simplistic they have ever been, so much so that people are complaining a lot more about being bored, if people still can't handle balancing both healing and dpsing, tough cookies, stop trying to come up with ways to punish the good healers more because others can handle it.

An example which would punish healers based on what you want, a tank is a troll gets hit by everything eventually healer can't handle the 16 stacked tank and they die, your suggestion has the healer die immediately because couldn't keep tank alive, if you changed it to dmg down welp your timer is healer mp as failing mechanics will still cause hp damage which have to be healed up, again punishing the healer for doing nothing wrong.

Your suggestion is just punishing healers for the sake of it because you have had bad experiences which i'm doubtful of having as much as you are claiming.

As for regen/shield healer thing, welcome to the healer forums, Whm had shielding they removed it, yet other healers keeped their shields and regens, SE's bad design decisions are talked aplenty with numerous ways to improve it.

While removing all mitigation/healing form non tanks/healers would increase our healing time(barely like 10% max so instead of 60%-90% we spend 50%-80%, riveting >_>), the core issue will still remain with the healers and healers will still say they are bored.

You make a point, but not a very strong one.

Someone has to be punished for the tank dying. The tank is being punished for dying by taking a weakness. The healer is being punished by them also dying.

or.. you know.. you could have read my post, and saw that I said they wont take 16 damage taken up debuffs, and would instead be taking damage down..... in which case, my original post is 100% sound against your argument, yet you have 3 likes and I only have 2.

But.. thats "how the cookie crumbles." I can say things as best I can, but so long as people want to argue and not progress things based on logic, we wont make any progress. Instead we'll just keep getting stickers, and mogstation dances, and "job adjustments" every patch, instead of actual useful progress. (Because the forums are a mess.)

Oh and the post that has literally nothing of value, has 7 likes. I guess thats what people want the devs to focus on. Blank posts, and pointless pictures.

Mmmmmh that a strange point of view. Ok if the healer fails at its job the death order is "Tank then others". But if you analyse the other possibilities, it's never the one failing who dies first. If the tank fails a positional and the party takes a cleave, the death order is "Other then tank". If the tank fails to take aggro then again it's "Other then tank". If the DPS fails the DPS check, everybody dies, not only the DPS.

Everybody is playing in a group. If someone in the group fails, the group is punished, not the player. That's how group content works.

Yes, please tell that to all the people who refuse to do their jobs.

I think everyone should be held accountable.

From the dps who dont improve their rotations, to the tanks who refuse to tank and mitigate, and use the blackest night, to the healers who refuse to heal, and force the co-healer to do all the healing.

If the community worked together, as a group, Square-Enix wouldnt have to constantly combat poor behavior. Yes this goes for low damage DPS to tanks trying to tank in off tank stance, to healers refusing to heal.

You think DPS jobs get constantly tweaked, tanks had tank stance removed and enmity generation turned into a joke, and healers damage actions reduced to just a few actions, because everyone is playing nicely? No.

[YusiKha]

I want to know how you think that making the healer die for their mistake is punishment.
Sure, it's flustering to know that your actions lead to your own death. The weakness effect and loss of resources act as a short-term reminder that 'you didn't do well enough'.
The game shames you.

But it doesn't punish you.

You Died.
You're been raised - That's healer MP gone (or caster, but I'm seeing far fewer casters willing to raise nowadays)
You're now on low HP - That's healer cooldowns/MP gone. We were going to use those on unavoidable damage. If you were a healer, you could heal yourself, but you have weakness and low MP from the raise. That's even more MP gone.

Your poor healer(s), having to pick up your slack.

DPS? A VerCure or Curing Waltz if they can give it. Now they must work harder to make up for the lost damage. Have to look for more opportunities to greed, maybe get killed for it-oh wait you outgear the fight. Nevermind.

From Tanks? A Cover or Clemency, maybe a 'usable on other' cooldown. No PLD? Oh dear.

It's Healers and DPS who shoulder the burden of deaths, no matter whose fault it was. DPS' burden goes away with iLevel. Healers' does not.
Tanks? The most selfish role in the game, if you ask me. And you have the audacity to come in here and rub our noses in your dirt?

So I ask you again. Why punish Healers for 'not doing their job', when healers are the only ones punished when other people don't do their jobs?

This is a team game. Those Tank/DPS cooldowns you hate so much? They're to help your healers, feel proud that your contribution earns the party another 300 potency Glare.
If, however, you come across a healer who refuses to play their part. Well, they're an individual who isn't inclined on group play. They're the one in the wrong, and you coming into a forum of people who are enthusiastic about our role in a party then claiming that we need to be shamed on top of punished for deaths.
Well dude, you're pretty rude.

Your damage-down instead of vuln is a good idea. Hardly unique, though.
Removing shield/regen dichotomy is also good. I made a thread on the very same thing last October.

But lastly - about wanting more DPS skills. The way that content is designed currently is quite nice. Severe & frequent healing checks can be quite stressful, especially if you're pugging them with randoms instead of in a static with a strict healing plan (memories of progging TEA still haunt me). Not only that but intensive healing sections are only really fun for healers.
May as well design puzzles that engage 8/8 instead of 2/8, eh?

So we ask for what won't break encounter design but still keep us entertained. A couple more DPS skills, so that we've got more to think about.


TL;DR: You're a bit of a prat, tanks are the most selfish role, and healers need more DPS skills.

[Daniolaut]

I want to know how you think that making the healer die for their mistake is punishment.



TL;DR: You're a bit of a prat, tanks are the most selfish role, and healers need more DPS skills.

Weakness is a form of damage down.

If you dont think your damage being reduced is not a punishment, please explain why you think healers need more damage skills.

It seems very contradictive to me for you to say that, while also insulting me.

But sure, lets resort to grade school name calling, that always works well in intellectual conversation.

[MirronTulaxia]

Hmm, I mean, they definitely need to do something to change things. But I don't see this as working to encourage people to heal more. The real issue is that there isn't enough reason to heal currently, and that needs to be rectified somehow.

[YusiKha]

Weakness is a form of damage down.
If you dont think your damage being reduced is not a punishment, please explain why you think healers need more damage skills.
contradictive to me for you to say that

The amount of damage that healers deal is completely separate to the reason that we want more of a rotation. Inflict a 99% damage reduction on the role and you wouldn't see gameplay change, because it doesn't matter how much DPS we deal, we'll still aim to do the most we can.
But just 2 skills? When you've got the fight's damage spikes memorised, and know where to use cooldowns... Well the only place to improve is those 2 skills. The more gear your group aquires means less healing, and more focus on 2 skills. All fights are boring when you've got so few things to care about, so few ways to mess up.

To simplify - Damage Dealt and Skill Required to deal said damage are 2 different things. I want the skill requirement to go up, I don't care about the damage we achieve doing it.

But sure, lets resort to grade school name calling, that always works well in intellectual conversation.

C'mon, my dude. A little bit of humour in a hyperbole tl;dr isn't as ad-hominem as you barging in and demanding our heads on a platter 'cause you had a bad experience with a selfish dipstick. If everyone did that, then all role forums would be awash with tales of incompetency that I encounter in DF. [<-ALSO HYPERBOLE]

[YusiKha]

Hmm, I mean, they definitely need to do something to change things. But I don't see this as working to encourage people to heal more. The real issue is that there isn't enough reason to heal currently, and that needs to be rectified somehow.

Clearing the content is good enough reason to heal, my dude. Though, I do think that SCH and WHM shouldn't be penalised for using their class healing mechanics.

[Daniolaut]

The amount of damage that healers deal is completely separate to the reason that we want more of a rotation. Inflict a 99% damage reduction on the role and you wouldn't see gameplay change, because it doesn't matter how much DPS we deal, we'll still aim to do the most we can.
But just 2 skills? When you've got the fight's damage spikes memorised, and know where to use cooldowns... Well the only place to improve is those 2 skills. The more gear your group aquires means less healing, and more focus on 2 skills. All fights are boring when you've got so few things to care about, so few ways to mess up.

To simplify - Damage Dealt and Skill Required to deal said damage are 2 different things. I want the skill requirement to go up, I don't care about the damage we achieve doing it.



C'mon, my dude. A little bit of humour in a hyperbole tl;dr isn't as ad-hominem as you barging in and demanding our heads on a platter 'cause you had a bad experience with a selfish dipstick. If everyone did that, then all role forums would be awash with tales of incompetency that I encounter in DF. [<-ALSO HYPERBOLE]

But... my thread is about healers being incapable or refusing to heal....

Making their damage "rotations" complex is literally counterproductive not only to this thread, without reasoning, but to Square-Enix's choice to do this very thing to hopefully ensure healers heal.

Clearly it was a failed attempt, but you cant possibly think they reduced healer damage actions to just 2 "spells" without realizing its going to affect "healers fun" if they think healers should be dealing damage.

Has it not been said that Square-Enix doesnt count healer damage into raid encounters? (Yes this is me asking a question. I heard its been said before, I never personally heard it from SE so no, I dont have or want to look for a link. My point still stands outside this one simple statement, as the others are 100% factual.) As well as Yoshida saying he hates cleric stance, ... and then SE removing a ton of healer damage spells?

To me it seems 100% intentional that they removed all damage spells except a few from healers. They dont want them letting people die to do damage. Neither do I.

Giving healers more to do damage wise, will give them an excuse. Right now this healer has no excuse. Yet I am the troll.

[MirronTulaxia]

Clearing the content is good enough reason to heal, my dude. Though, I do think that SCH and WHM shouldn't be penalised for using their class healing mechanics.

To clarify, my stance is that more of their GCD should entail healing actions as opposed to the optimal action being purely OGCD healing and GCD DPS.

[Semirhage]

Oh no. Has the eternal cycle of the healer forums looped back around to that old Sylphie fantasy of evil cackling fake-healers who only queue so they can get the thrill of spamming Broil ten billion times and get sick jollies from watching tanks die? It's been a few weeks since I last saw that one.

[Snek]

But... my thread is about healers being incapable or refusing to heal....

I once had a RDM who did nothing but their Black magic abilities and never meleed. We should reduce RDM's abilities to 3 buttons (melee, short cast, long cast) to make sure all RDMs balance their magic. Actually reduce it to two buttons to lock them into using their melee attacks. See how bad that sounds? This is the reasoning you're using if it's just about healers incapable/refusing to heal. Regardless of how unbelievable brain-numbingly simple you make a job, there will always be someone who finds a way to play it poorly. We should instead focus on bringing up complexity in optimal play... Easy to enter, very difficult to master is what ALL jobs should be striving towards.

Making their damage "rotations" complex is literally counterproductive not only to this thread, without reasoning, but to Square-Enix's choice to do this very thing to hopefully ensure healers heal.

And we've been complaining about this (both tanks and healers) since ShB was released. We don't want to just be punching bags and heal bots. We want complexity too. Hell, it doesn't even have to be complexity in their DPS rotation, but unfortunately, due to the fight design being the same every time (i.e. we learn the fight thus know exactly when damage is coming) it ends up being the only thing that can be complex (in the end, DPS is the only thing that matters. A dead boss = the ultimate heal). We want each job in a role to be different and to allow us to grow and excel at these jobs. Plus having very different ways to get the problem presented to us done is fun.

Clearly it was a failed attempt, but you cant possibly think they reduced healer damage actions to just 2 "spells" without realizing its going to affect "healers fun" if they think healers should be dealing damage.

(pure speculation time) It's actually quite possible they did. There's only 4 people on the job design team. So making all the healers/tanks the same makes balancing them much easier. I think they aimed for balance over everything this expansion and it resulted in homogenization to the detriment of diversity and (IMO) fun.

Has it not been said that Square-Enix doesnt count healer damage into raid encounters? (Yes this is me asking a question. I heard its been said before, I never personally heard it from SE so no, I don't have or want to look for a link. My point still stands outside this one simple statement, as the others are 100% factual.) As well as Yoshida saying he hates cleric stance, ... and then SE removing a ton of healer damage spells?

This is true... In ARR. Everything beyond that they 100% include healer DPS as it's pretty much impossible to meet enrage without healers doing DPS. Cleric stance was removed in Stormblood (or change to such a huge degree that it became a small DPS buff window instead of a massive "stance dance" ability). DPS reduction was done an expansion later in Shadowbringers.

To me it seems 100% intentional that they removed all damage spells except a few from healers. They don't want them letting people die to do damage. Neither do I.

Nobody wants them to die to do damage, but that's not the jobs fault... That's the person playing the jobs fault. Don't blame the tools, blame the craftsman.