Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[Amnmaat]

the thought of male viera being yet more twinks does amuse me, but in my minds eye all I can see is al-cid margrace with rabbit ears for them

edit: i'd personally be fine with basically anything that isnt actively bara (we've got vanilla and furry already) or the weirdly proportioned dorito/gymrat that is au'ra (it legit screws with their gear appearances, with the shoulders/pauldrons being super oversized and the waists being super cinched for some reason, stuff like the farlander striking set and the crystarium guard gear from story REALLY showcase it)

this gave me pause--arent the majority of male roes we meet either super crass/rapey pirates (limsa), meathead gladiators (uldah), or two-bit lackey villains (garlemald/doma, universal generic Mooks in all factions)?

I find it's generally more of a case of naming the few decent ones (mistbeard--who is arguable, since he is literally one of the bloodiest scariest pirates to ever live even if he's retired and dialed it back of late, WVR trainer, the gorge brothers, rhitatyn, the boulder brothers, gosetsu(??)).

You listed a whole lot of gentlemanly male Roegadyn.
No race is one dimensional; often 2 personality qualities stand out the most, even if it's the qualities are on the extreme ends of each other. Male Roegadyn are very dynamic so there's 3 qualities that stand out; protector, warrior/strongman/mercenary/whatever other synonym, and gentlemanly.

1: A chance is still a chance. Low odds, are still a chance. Low Probability, is still a chance.
Until it IS literally said Outright No New Race is Going to be Added, the Chance is still there. He outright said No to Playable Child Characters, he didnt outright say No to a new race in the later future. They split Hrothgar and Viera because they wanted to do both is the "possibility" this might be the last time they might be able to make a new race. Did you see that word again? "Possibility"
Ill patiently wait for you to prove that claim that he said outright no btw. Im open to being wrong, but right now I think you are just lying and being dishonest to try and desperately sneak in a win for your argument.
2: With that logic, why couldn't they still make a new race? You realize the same amount of work will go into make the opposite gender, as it would to just make a new race right?
Making the Model, customization options, animations, emotes, scaling and adjusting Past & Future Armor, etc. Its the same amount of work.
3: Yeah, "They wanted to do something new. They were going to do Viera back in heavensward, but decided against it in the end" Explain what data he could have used to justify the Au-Ra. That poll says More Clans to existing Races, the Viera, and Mixed Race Cross-species were Popular and high on the chart, so again, going off of the Poll, the Viera was the clear winner. Followed by Interspecies Mixed Races, and Additional Clan Types to pre-existing races. Something like the Au-Ra places 4th on the chart. This "Data and research" says the playerbase Desired something else, but YoshiP and team to decided to go with making the Au-ra, a less popular choice by the poll. So he in fact decided to go for a less desired choice, according to the data.

1. He knows the various departments and the CEOs will say no to a new race. He never gives a hint of trying to find a way to add a new race; the missing genders on the other hand do get a hint that if they can find a away around what's holding them from adding the missing genders they will add them. If they're struggling to add the missing genders, what makes you think they would add a new race like Baanga?

2. Again, you don't understand how organizations work. A brand new race has 0 chance when the data and customers are telling them that they want the missing genders more than they'd ever want a Baanga or Burmecians. These things go through the various departments and CEOS with Data analysis and other considerations. He can't just go in there and say "I know we're missing 2 genders but I want to add Baanga." You'd get laughed at and demoted for even wasting the CEO's time.

3. Reptile/Lizard type race was in the top 3 in poll ran in the japanese forum. Yoshida even points this out in the response to that poll about how western players like mammalian races like Viera as opposed to the japanese who liked Reptialians.

By lore standards, she is also a battle hardened warrior (literally!) and yet~


Male rabbits irl fill the same societal role as male viera in the game (stay outside the nest and protect their colony, only entering to mate), and I'd say they're pretty damn cute. And on top of that they are typically smaller because smaller frames have been naturally selected to help them stay stealthed in their environment. Hmm, sounds familiar... (It's almost like aesthetic design and western human beauty expectations don't dictate how a species fills their niche???!)

Female Au ra are the only exception to the rule, I can't imagine male Viera looking like male Miqo'te (teenage boys) when you put them alongside female Viera (strong warrior women). Male Viera shouldn't be used to fill a quota; that should be left to a brand new race, like Au ra was.

[BadLala]

You're contradicting yourself

You simply didn't understand me. The so called rigorous process you mentioned isn't something unique to races only. Everything in the game goes through it already. Be it new races, lore, cutscenes, gear, etc. Even beast tribes would go through that. A playable race is not a unique kind of product that companies treat differently at those stages. Furthermore, Yoshida never mentioned any of that being an issue when adding a new race in the same link you posted. The cost of these processes is not new and is not a continuous cost that carries on once you implement the product. So they can easily push content here and there to fit it in if they wanted to. But what comes after is the main cost that they're worried about. Furthermore, Bangaas are already in the game. So what you mentioned isn't really the issue if they wanted to add them.

You're conflating the word cost and you're actually agreeing with my statement. The problem is not cost, the problem is everything other than cost. The difference is that male Viera and Hrothgar would get through; Bangaa however would require extra work at all levels, specially the marketing level; they wouldn't even pass the marketing level haha.

You do know that the time spent on QA and debugging is still considered a cost. And what Yoshida said by "can’t be solved simply by throwing more money or people at it" doesn't mean there's no cost. The whole point is labeled " The Cost of Developing a New Playable Race". Cost isn't just money and people. Time is also included, which I have stated in my post. And if you read Yoshida's response carefully, you'll see he was referring to trying to maintain the 3.5 month major patch cycles. So time is the major concern for him in that line. The issue with QA and debugging isn't that you have to pay more money for it or need more manpower. It's time consuming. And the more stuff you have to worry about, the more it negatively affects you, thus becomes a cost for conducting QA/debugging.

Which brings us back to the issue that just simply adding a new playable race will incur additional cost on the development team that will last till the entire life of the game. The cost of the things you mentioned is something they only worry about for one time and be done with it. They create different beast tribes each expansion. So it's really not that much of an issue compared to having to maintain a playable race throughout the game. Debugging and QA will still carry on regardless if they're new races or not.

Bangaa however would require extra work

AKA cost. And again, this doesn't mean that this is the reason they won't add Bangaa. It's the same reason male Miqote and female Roegadyen and Highlanders were the first to be added before Au ra. And it's the reason they would start with male Viera and Female Hrothgar. And that's players' demand, not the reasons you mentioned. The second point in Yoshida's response proves that demand is what gave us Viera in the game. If your points were true, they would have added Viera only and ignored Hrothgar, since they've already done the work for Viera back in Heavensward. Furthermore, the dev team's desire to develop something is also under consideration. Au ra were added instead of Viera because they wanted them to be all-new original race of FFXIV. So I have yet to see any of the reasons you mentioned being an issue in any official source.

[Amnmaat]

Which brings us back to the issue that just simply adding a new playable race will incur additional cost on the development team that will last till the entire life of the game. The cost of the things you mentioned is something they only worry about for one time and be done with it. They create different beast tribes each expansion. So it's really not that much of an issue compared to having to maintain a playable race throughout the game. Debugging and QA will still carry on regardless if they're new races or not.



AKA cost. And again, this doesn't mean that this is the reason they won't add Bangaa. It's the same reason male Miqote and female Roegadyen and Highlanders were the first to be added before Au ra. And it's the reason they would start with male Viera and Female Hrothgar. And that's players' demand, not the reasons you mentioned. The second point in Yoshida's response proves that demand is what gave us Viera in the game. If your points were true, they would have added Viera only and ignored Hrothgar, since they've already done the work for Viera back in Heavensward. Furthermore, the dev team's desire to develop something is also under consideration. Au ra were added instead of Viera because they wanted them to be all-new original race of FFXIV. So I have yet to see any of the reasons you mentioned being an issue in any official source.

Haha, so now you've moved from cost to time, yes, you realized your original argument is now 6 feet under.
Furthermore, the data, player support, and the like is what pushes things like missing genders/new races through. Bangaa would never happen, as it doesn't have that. Again, this is the extra stuff. You will never see Bangaa in this game. The funny thing is you're slowly crossing the line to my side but you still pretend like adding missing genders and adding Baanga require the same level of "work"; one requires extra, one doesn't. Even in the simplest terms (3D art/design) Baanga would require more design considerations than the missing genders. I'll just say that you didn't understand what you were getting into and let you roll on by.

[BadLala]

Haha, so now you've moved from cost to time, yes, you realized your original argument is now 6 feet under.

Have you ever heard of the term "computational cost"? I'm really astonished that you didn't know that time in any process is cost. Also, are you intentionally twisting my words to build a strawman argument? I have never moved from cost to time since I already mentioned that cost includes time in my previous posts, which you just decided to ignore now since you can't seem to find anything to support your argument.

The cost IS the real problem. Cost includes everything from concept, development to QA and debugging and even time.

Furthermore, the data, player support, and the like is what pushes things like missing genders/new races through. Bangaa would never happen, as it doesn't have that. Again, this is the extra stuff. You will never see Bangaa in this game. The funny thing is you're slowly crossing the line to my side but you still pretend like adding missing genders and adding Baanga require the same level of "work"; one requires extra, one doesn't. Even in the simplest terms (3D art/design) Baanga would require more design considerations than the missing genders. I'll just say that you didn't understand what you were getting into and let you roll on by.

Also, I have never said that we're likely to see Bangaa over male Viera. And you never mentioned " the data, player support, and the like" as the extra stuff. Nor did anyone deny that these factors are there. But if you think these are the factors that make the design of a new race simpler than another, then you clearly have no idea how 3D modeling works nor the programming that goes into it. Au ra were added in heavenward simply because the dev team wanted them. Viera were obviously the race that had more demand in the poll, already known and liked by the players. Yet, Au ra were chosen because they wanted them to the first original race of FFXIV.

Edit: Just in case you forgot my point. The cost difference between adding a completely new race against adding male Viera and Female Hrothgar is minimal. Just because we already have female Viera and male Horthgar, doesn't magically make it significantly less than adding a new race.

1: So you're admitting to be a Liar. This wasn't stated, you put the words in his mouth and spoke on his behalf, saying something he never said. Congrats, I now dont trust a single thing you say. You have no proof of this, because you made it up.

I'm starting to see that now. So far everything he said hasn't been backed by any sources (still waiting on that statement about genderlocking, which I'm sure I won't see) and the source he used outright had no mention of the points he's stating.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

1. He knows the various departments and the CEOs will say no to a new race. He never gives a hint of trying to find a way to add a new race; the missing genders on the other hand do get a hint that if they can find a away around what's holding them from adding the missing genders they will add them. If they're struggling to add the missing genders, what makes you think they would add a new race like Baanga?

2. Again, you don't understand how organizations work. A brand new race has 0 chance when the data and customers are telling them that they want the missing genders more than they'd ever want a Baanga or Burmecians. These things go through the various departments and CEOS with Data analysis and other considerations. He can't just go in there and say "I know we're missing 2 genders but I want to add Baanga." You'd get laughed at and demoted for even wasting the CEO's time.

3. Reptile/Lizard type race was in the top 3 in poll ran in the japanese forum. Yoshida even points this out in the response to that poll about how western players like mammalian races like Viera as opposed to the japanese who liked Reptialians

1: So you're admitting to be a Liar. This wasn't stated, you put the words in his mouth and spoke on his behalf, saying something he never said. Congrats, I now dont trust a single thing you say. You have no proof of this, because you made it up.
Again, the same amount of work would go into making the missing Genders, as it would making a new race altogether. The Process is still the same. If they Can make the Missing Genders, then there is a Chance, even at 0.0001% that they could make another new race if they wanted to.
They never outright said no...just that these 2 are "Possibly" the last Races they will make. And they did both Viera and Hrothgar, because it "Might" be their last chance.

2: The Marketing Research analytic BS you keep talking about stated that Viera, more clans for existing races, or Hybrid Races were popular ideas. He didnt do them, he did the Au-Ra instead. Which means he and his team can do what they want and have more power then you seem to wanna think they have.
This isn't about adding Bangaa instead of the missing genders. The very clear point is: The same amount of effort goes into making them. So they COULD make a new race the same as Missing genders. This isn't some Corporate speak you love to run back to, this is a simple fact of Development.

3: What poll are you reading? Reptilian beastmen placed #4 for Japan, Reptilian demi-beastmen is #5 for Japan
Top 3 was Mammalian demi-beastmen, or Viera as an example, which placed #2
Looking at the poll more and more, the decision for Au-Ra makes less sense, if going by this Data. If they were truly making something based off this data, then Races of mixed heritage was #1 across the board with all 5 countries listed. So why not Viera? It was listed higher then an idea like Au-ra.
Because YoshiP and team decided it.

[SturmChurro]

Some qualities will overlap, but some are more defining than others.
Male Highlanders are the sloppy protectors; need I say more?
Male Roegadyn are the epitome of protectors but their other defining quality is their gentlemanly demeanour; they're the ones who would do anything to not offend his woman kind of man. Very classical gentleman.

Races are not one dimensional, some qualities stick out more than others. My point is that male Viera would be the perfect protector male because they fit that super hero trope; "by the time you see a male viera you're already dead" type of deal. And just looking at the official sketch/concept art they look non-assuming, as well as looking at female Viera and how they are. This goes into psychology and probability, but I'll just say that's what I believe they will be like, as I stated in my original post. If they end up like I think they will they will really stand out in 2 particular qualities: hero and protector.

As for "beastial" face you're talking about, that's not a beastial face, that's just how female Viera look but more rugged/male. Viera have the same pronounced jaw structure.

So you say races are not one-dimensional, and then continuously talk about wanting male viera to be this one-dimensional "hero and protector". What are you even debating here anymore (aside from this back and forth nonsensical development back and forth you two are having, in my opinion)?

I can't imagine male Viera looking like male Miqo'te (teenage boys) when you put them alongside female Viera (strong warrior women). Male Viera shouldn't be used to fill a quota; that should be left to a brand new race, like Au ra was.

That's unfortunate, since they are envisioned to have a miqo'te like face, and elezen body. As many like to say from time to time in here.

[Roda]

Female Au ra are the only exception to the rule, I can't imagine male Viera looking like male Miqo'te (teenage boys) when you put them alongside female Viera (strong warrior women). Male Viera shouldn't be used to fill a quota; that should be left to a brand new race, like Au ra was.

Female Au Ra aren't the only exception

Behold! A seasoned officer of the immortal flames!


An experienced gladiator of the Crystal Braves who is in no way suspicious


Nerdboy Maurader Alka Zolka


"Teenage boy" Revolutionary X'rhun Tia


Evil "Teenage boy" dark monk


And inexplicitly the strongest character in the game???? (but also the biggest dumbass)


Yda


Storm Commander R'ashaht Rhiki, a battle thirsty maurauder that would give Sadu a run for her blood euphoria



And these are just the ones off the top of my head, there's probably way more like the pirate lesbians in limsa

And I too don't think Viera males should look like something in between an elezen and a miqo'te to fill a quota.
I think they should look like that because it makes sense both design wise and lore wise. :]
(the quota filling is just a bonus)

[Amnmaat]

Have you ever heard of the term "computational cost"? I'm really astonished that you didn't know that time in any process is cost. Also, are you intentionally twisting my words to build a strawman argument? I have never moved from cost to time since I already mentioned that cost includes time in my previous posts, which you just decided to ignore now since you can't seem to find anything to support your argument.

This is how you're sounding

Just because a coconut is the product of a tree doesn't make the coconut a tree.

Also, I have never said that we're likely to see Bangaa over male Viera. And you never mentioned " the data, player support, and the like" as the extra stuff. Nor did anyone deny that these factors are there. But if you think these are the factors that make the design of a new race simpler than another, then you clearly have no idea how 3D modeling works nor the programming that goes into it. Au ra were added in heavenward simply because the dev team wanted them. Viera were obviously the race that had more demand in the poll, already known and liked by the players. Yet, Au ra were chosen because they wanted them to the first original race of FFXIV.

Edit: Just in case you forgot my point. The cost difference between adding a completely new race against adding male Viera and Female Hrothgar is minimal. Just because we already have female Viera and male Horthgar, doesn't magically make it significantly less than adding a new race.

Not true, that's what I've been saying since the beginning, clearly you're only reading what you want to read.

I'm starting to see that now. So far everything he said hasn't been backed by any sources (still waiting on that statement about genderlocking, which I'm sure I won't see) and the source he used outright had no mention of the points he's stating.

My source is YoshiP himself, what's yours?

1: So you're admitting to be a Liar. This wasn't stated, you put the words in his mouth and spoke on his behalf, saying something he never said. Congrats, I now dont trust a single thing you say. You have no proof of this, because you made it up.
Again, the same amount of work would go into making the missing Genders, as it would making a new race altogether. The Process is still the same. If they Can make the Missing Genders, then there is a Chance, even at 0.0001% that they could make another new race if they wanted to.
They never outright said no...just that these 2 are "Possibly" the last Races they will make. And they did both Viera and Hrothgar, because it "Might" be their last chance.

Show me where he said he's looking to the possibility of adding races in the future? On the other hand, he said that because of all work required there might not be any new races in the future.
Compare that to the fact that if he finds a way around QA, debugging, and other issues he'll add the missing genders.

Those are two very different approaches.

2: The Marketing Research analytic BS you keep talking about stated that Viera, more clans for existing races, or Hybrid Races were popular ideas. He didnt do them, he did the Au-Ra instead. Which means he and his team can do what they want and have more power then you seem to wanna think they have.
This isn't about adding Bangaa instead of the missing genders. The very clear point is: The same amount of effort goes into making them. So they COULD make a new race the same as Missing genders. This isn't some Corporate speak you love to run back to, this is a simple fact of Development.

No no no, you're not the one who decides what this is about, the starting point of this debate was about adding Bangaa, to which I said that would never happen. So no, you don't move the goalpost to wherever you want to move it to.
On the point of marketing, data analysis, and the extra work required; yes, this is required. You as the producer don't run the organization by yourself, you would have to create a presentation, backed up by data and tangible sources to prove to the various departments and personal why Bangaa should be a feature in the next expansion. I don't know if you work at a farm or you flip burgers, but this is how organizations are ran.

3: What poll are you reading? Reptilian beastmen placed #4 for Japan, Reptilian demi-beastmen is #5 for Japan
Top 3 was Mammalian demi-beastmen, or Viera as an example, which placed #2
Looking at the poll more and more, the decision for Au-Ra makes less sense, if going by this Data. If they were truly making something based off this data, then Races of mixed heritage was #1 across the board with all 5 countries listed. So why not Viera? It was listed higher then an idea like Au-ra.
Because YoshiP and team decided it.

Together, reptilian race scored barely below mammillian (Viera)
The other choices like mixed race and extra clans have been explained by the devs as "we get into the issue of why add mixed races and the lore you would have to create for that, when we could instead add a new race." It's been well documented why hybrid races and extra clans have design flaws and are an issue in terms of new features to the game. You'd run into a lot of issues like how they chose a hybrid race I don't like or that is weird (lalafel + Roegadyn); they'd have to introduce a hybrid race for all races or a clan for all races to really fulfill those 2 requests.

That really only leaves mamillian and reptilian (for which they created 2 options, 1 bestman and 1 demi human); the "reptilian" results were slightly below mammillian. Also notice how they listed Reptilian twice? He was most likely fishing for what he wanted; present this to marketing and CEOs and they'd just go "hmm they voted a lot for reptilian" when you put them together. His data backed up what he wanted.

He also cited players support as the reason that they decided to add the missing Miqo'te and Roegadyn genders. You can't just add whatever you want, you have to back up what you want to add through data and support from the fanbase.

So you say races are not one-dimensional, and then continuously talk about wanting male viera to be this one-dimensional "hero and protector". What are you even debating here anymore (aside from this back and forth nonsensical development back and forth you two are having, in my opinion)?

Hero and protector are two different qualities. A hero is one who actively seeks to free a person or many people; a Thancred type of person. A protector is someone who patrols his environment so that others don't harm his people; this is passive, you're not looking to go free anyone, you're there defensively to protect.

That's unfortunate, since they are envisioned to have a miqo'te like face, and elezen body. As many like to say from time to time in here.

Elezen body, my statement stands. I don't see male Viera looking all young like male Miqo'te, AKA bishounen. Moreover, I don't expect feminine faces when you consider the environment and the circumstances of how male Viera live. His statement could be referring to Miqo'te's face 4.

[SpiralMask]

guys we're arguing with one person's headcanons/projection as to the aesthetic design of a race (which i have shamefully contributed to already), let's just stop and get back to the thread topic for "male viera yea/nay support"

[SturmChurro]

Hero and protector are two different qualities. A hero is one who actively seeks to free a person or many people; a Thancred type of person. A protector is someone who patrols his environment so that others don't harm his people; this is passive, you're not looking to go free anyone, you're there defensively to protect.


Elezen body, my statement stands. I don't see male Viera looking all young like male Miqo'te, AKA bishounen. Moreover, I don't expect feminine faces when you consider the environment and the circumstances of how male Viera live. His statement could be referring to Miqo'te's face 4.

I definitely think you are doing a me, and just trying to argue to argue at this point. I dig it. A "hero" can have many different aspects and being a "protector" is one of them. Complete nonargument.

Hero

a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

Protector

a person or thing that protects someone or something.

You could argue, that perhaps a protector doesn't have to be a hero, but they can also be one and the same. The real question is, what do you envision a hero that isn't a protector to look like, or a protector that isn't a hero? How would these qualities translate into the finished product of male viera? What differentiates these qualities to you into a concept for the look of a race? Are they not synonymous? When does the hero become the villain, or the protector the oppressor - and how does this translate into concept art?

You should expect feminine, younger or a 'boyish" face (for males), they already did so with female viera. It's almost a trend to have like an ugly old man face, and or a young boyish face.