We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Lucy_Pyre]

I think this horse has been beaten to death, it has been explained so many times in so many ways including 6 different examples from the current tier: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5378810. But you just keep on with the same tired poor reasoning.

Seems like you either don't understand how invulns work or cannot put the prep and planning time into making it work with your healers so that they don't need to drop 170k worth of heals on you. Or you just like making healers beast heal you in 10 seconds no matter what.

Ah yes, "if your healer isn't doing anything then it doesn't matter which tank you are, you're still going to die" magically translates to 'poor reasoning' just because people want to push a narrative that LD is garbage. Whatever you say man, it's simply not worth the time or effort to continually go on about on about the same old topic in three different threads. It is funny though, in an expansion where so many people are crying that tanks are 'all the same', they sure are adamant on wanting arguably the most unique cooldown of any of the tanks to be made to be little or no different from the other three. Make up your minds.

[Chrono_Rising]

Ah yes, "if your healer isn't doing anything then it doesn't matter which tank you are, you're still going to die" magically translates to 'poor reasoning' just because people want to push a narrative that LD is garbage. Whatever you say man, it's simply not worth the time or effort to continually go on about on about the same old topic in three different threads. It is funny though, in an expansion where so many people are crying that tanks are 'all the same', they sure are adamant on wanting arguably the most unique cooldown of any of the tanks to be made to be little or no different from the other three. Make up your minds.

Poor reasoning is that every tank needs to be healed to max in 10 seconds because you have decided its so based on your experience with healers or the way you personally heal. Just because you haven't, or your healers haven't, taken full advantage of invulns doesn't mean others aren't pushing these skills to the limit.

Cannot talk homogenization unless there is a concrete alternative. Asking for changes is not the same as being homogenized, this is again poor reasoning because this is not a binary option.

Bad memory too apparently, I haven't said this expansion the skill was garbage I said give us the tools within our kit to handle at least some of the burden and indicators for healers to more intuitively know what needs to be done. See healer encountering the ability for the first time.

[ItMe]

Holy cow this has gotten salty.
Can we back up a sec and just dial it back a bit?

[Chrono_Rising]

Holy cow this has gotten salty.
Can we back up a sec and just dial it back a bit?

Lol Sorry 2 hours of sleep make me sharp lol

[Lucy_Pyre]

Poor reasoning is that every tank needs to be healed to max in 10 seconds

Incorrect. I'm saying that each an every tank (barring PLD which, again, is the true outlier here) must be healed to a safe & stable health threshold. Exactly where that is will depend on the healer's own comfort level, but anywhere between 70k-120k is a generous margin of example. The point, however, is that in some shape or form every single tank requires some form of healing post-invuln; whether it be from the healer themselves or a WAR going unga bunga with Nascent Flash and Inner Release. The outlier to all of this, as I have said many times, is PLD.

[Chrono_Rising]

Incorrect. I'm saying that each an every tank (barring PLD which, again, is the true outlier here) must be healed to a safe & stable health threshold. Exactly where that is will depend on the healer's own comfort level, but anywhere between 70k-120k is a generous margin of example. The point, however, is that in some shape or form every single tank requires some form of healing post-invuln; whether it be from the healer themselves or a WAR going unga bunga with Nascent Flash and Inner Release. The outlier to all of this, as I have said many times, is PLD.

Good, specifics we can get somewhere with. It is very common to let a tank who is about to invuln take damage and do the bare minimum of healing 10 to 20 seconds before they invuln, including on paladin. This usually means that even after Hallowed ground it is common to need to heal the paladin up to a more livable HP. Really the statement is every tank needs to be maintained at a healthy HP.

Paladin isn't an outlier unless they go into their invuln at 100% hp. You gave a range of 70k to 120k, as a OT you might aim for the lower and let them use their own resources to bring themselves up, MT you might aim for 120k. Point: This doesn't apply to a dark knight, you must restore a total of 170k regardless of being MT or OT this is the tank at the moment whose target HP to given back must be 170k worth of heals rather than 70k.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Good, specifics we can get somewhere with. It is very common to let a tank who is about to invuln take damage and do the bare minimum of healing 10 to 20 seconds before they invuln, including on paladin. This usually means that even after Hallowed ground it is common to need to heal the paladin up to a more livable HP. Really the statement is every tank needs to be maintained at a healthy HP.

Paladin isn't an outlier unless they go into their invuln at 100% hp. You gave a range of 70k to 120k, as a OT you might aim for the lower and let them use their own resources to bring themselves up, MT you might aim for 120k. Point: This doesn't apply to a dark knight, you must restore a total of 170k regardless of being MT or OT this is the tank at the moment whose target HP to given back must be 170k worth of heals rather than 70k.

PLD is an outlier because, unlike all of the other tanks, their health bar completely doesn't move in any way. Sure, they pay for this extreme level of power with an agonizingly long cooldown, but it cannot be denied that the way in which HG works makes it leagues above every other cooldown in the game during its activation period, and that is what the topic is about. I'm just tired of people trying to dumpster on LD when, functionally, HG is the outlier in most situations. And while again, the PLD does partially pay for its activation power with the cooldown timer, I don't think that that's enough to be able to ignore PLD from being the only individual among the tanks who is completely detached from any sort of heal necessities during or post-invuln.

[Chrono_Rising]

PLD is an outlier because, unlike all of the other tanks, their health bar completely doesn't move in any way. Sure, they pay for this extreme level of power with an agonizingly long cooldown, but it cannot be denied that the way in which HG works makes it leagues above every other cooldown in the game during its activation period, and that is what the topic is about. I'm just tired of people trying to dumpster on LD when, functionally, HG is the outlier in most situations. And while again, the PLD does partially pay for its activation power with the cooldown timer, I don't think that that's enough to be able to ignore PLD from being the only individual among the tanks who is completely detached from any sort of heal necessities during or post-invuln.

Hallowed is probably overpowered. How the community would want to deal with hallowed ground is a different story, personally I think it should be on an even longer cooldown. Hallowed being over powered and an outlier has no bearing on whether or not "We really need to talk about Living Dead" which is this thread.

Living Dead functions and does its job. Could it be better? Sure, as you agreed most tanks just need a livable amount of HP. We use to be able to drop a 20% heal increase and restore 20% of our HP during living dead, can we reincorporate this somehow? We don't need to become a HG of SB clone, but it probably could use an adjustment.

I would also say that there should be a more obvious indicator for what you need to do with this skill for newer healers. Most invulns tank hits 1 and this leads to an obvious feedback loop: 1 hp is a bad place to be heal it!!! There isn't really an indicator that not only is 1 a bad place to be but you need to restore a hidden total of HP.

[Lucy_Pyre]

-Snip because post length zzzzzzzzz-

I don't agree that the way LD functions is, by itself, bad. At the end of the day this is an MMO, and in most MMOs in order to properly understand a class/job you typically have to play it to some extent. This very reasoning extends to LD and people not understanding it. But along the same lines, let's look at how many healers utterly refuse to allow a WAR to manage their own HP with Nascent. Now while I don't doubt that there are simply some healers who are beyond jaded by no-mitigation tanks, most decent and above healers will typically let a tank coast on their own HP for a while until the actual need to heal them arises; which WAR is arguably the queen of (debatable VS DRK and TBN) with the sheer amount of healing that they're capable of doing. Unfortunately, many a healer either doesn't even know that WAR is capable of burst healing themselves for a huge amount of health, or doesn't understand their healing potency enough, and just never lets them drop to around 50-60% HP so that they can get the full value out of a Nascent Flash usage.

If they played the job then they would understand this better, and I do think that tank & healer players should at the least have a basic understanding of what one another's jobs do, but realistically most healers or tanks aren't going to play their counterpart's job just so that they can understand some of their kit better. On the point that LD could be easier to understand at a glance, like some sort of indicator of how much health is still required to heal, that much I can agree to. However, I completely disagree that LD needs any sort of major sweeping change to its functionality beyond maybe some minor visualization improvements. Off the top of my head, a number system like Embolden could work. Simply start the Walking Dead debuff at 10 'stacks' to indicate 100% health is required to heal, and have the stack reduce by 1 for every 10% of health restored. Although when also on the topic of Walking Dead I can't also help but point out that I've had more than a handful of times running EX farms on DRK where, even with two WHMs in a party, the healers have failed to clear the debuff. Some players are simply beyond any reasonable form of assistance, no matter what it may be.

[Chrono_Rising]

I don't agree that the way LD functions is, by itself, bad.

9/10 times I agree that LD serves its purpose. I do think that it could be improved because when it has failed, most of the time its “raised a dps and used benediction… opps” try to heal unplanned, get to 130k and then die from the debuff expiring so even just a small tweak to either sustain to help this or to incoming heals would minimize this further.

As you say later though, healers that don’t deal with it don’t deal with it and there is not fixing that.

On the point that LD could be easier to understand at a glance, like some sort of indicator of how much health is still required to heal, that much I can agree to. However, I completely disagree that LD needs any sort of major sweeping change to its functionality beyond maybe some minor visualization improvements.

I’m glad we can agree on something. I’m not sure what categorizes a “sweeping change”. Are adding back old self-sustain (conva and 4.5 sole survivor) sweeping changes?