BLM Raise.

[Kabooa]

Neat.
So people have options and can decide for themselves what they want. That sounds like healthy game design.

FF14 is overall tuned well.

Which is why this one facet sticks out like a nose wart.

[Archwizard]

FF14 is overall tuned well.

As long as you ignore the issues that already exist within the sphere of the entire Healing role, you mean? The ones that have been cited multiple times as the reason we haven't seen a new Healing job in five years, in part because the needs for healing and resurrection go down as gearing increases? The ones that make Vercure laughable in the discussion of RDM's party utility?

Rez access doesn't particularly stick out to me in that regard; the only job that really pays a penalty for it is RDM, considering that SMN is regularly neck-and-neck with BLM while providing rezzes, passive healing, party damage buffs, and high mobility. Discussion of the disparity between RDM and SMN is already overblown in being extended to BLM with this thread, much less every job as you propose.
There are ways to balance access to rezzes without homogenizing both utility and healing, the latter of which I believe your suggestion would exacerbate.

[HeulGDarian]

Man nobody likes us summoners :C

[Kabooa]

There are ways to balance access to rezzes without homogenizing both utility and healing, the latter of which I believe your suggestion would exacerbate.

No, my suggestion is pretty fair overall.

You get rid of it, or you share it and compensate the jobs held back because of it. This is just a high level overview because I'm tired of having this conversation and don't feel like digging up all my old posts on it.

And yes - FF14 is fairly well tuned, though it has glaring design problems. The two are related but very different parts of the game.

[Archwizard]

No, my suggestion is pretty fair overall.

You get rid of it, or you share it and compensate the jobs held back because of it. This is just a high level overview because I'm tired of having this conversation and don't feel like digging up all my old posts on it.

Okay one, fairly certain the devs have gone on record that they don't want to go the WoW route of removing unique utilities from jobs. Whether you remove all of the rez skills from DPS or give them to everyone, that would be removing the unique aspect of them. Good luck selling that argument to the devs.

Two, the flaws in your original argument:

There is the built in cost of using Raise, the built in penalty of needing it through Resurrection Sickness, and lastly the penalty for simply having the ability to raise.

"Built in cost of using Raise": RDM's MP pool is frequently toted as the counter for how many Verraises it has stocked, since its main rotation consumes a fraction of that MP. If you were to extend this to Melee and Ranged jobs, the majority of whom don't use MP for anything, we'd see largely the same. Sure there's the cast time aspect and the consumption of GCDs, but if casting it at all is worth it in the first place, all that means is Raising will still largely be hoisted onto the jobs who can mitigate that with Swiftcast, Presence of Mind/Thin Air, or Lightspeed.
And BLM gets infinite MP and four Swiftcasts every minute, largely used for mobility - which given hypothetical access to Raise, would put it above RDM on rez potential (since it's 4 rezzes + 1/Lucid).
Tell me again how giving rezzes to every job will level the field? Because not all jobs are equal in that regard, and each would have to be individually balanced to have it, which then ruins your thesis.

"Resurrection Sickness": Any living player - even with 75% stat reduction from Brink of Death - will always do more damage than a dead one. In the rare cases where the resurrection penalty is harsh enough that players simply can't afford it, groups will just forgo raising entirely in favor of wiping and restarting the encounter (assuming one screw-up doesn't already wipe, hi Ramuh), so "give everyone raise" is moot there too.

"Raise Ability Penalty": Again, the only job being taxed for it is RDM. One job. SMN has never been hit as harshly for having Resurrect as RDM has for its chain-Verraises, so the problem is less "some DPS can Raise too" and more "RDM can Swift-Verraise consecutively."
There are ways to address that fundamental issue directly without bringing every other job into it or rebalancing the concept of raises. Off the top of my head, you could have Verraise be put on a CD, or have it share charges or resources with a potent damage skill (balanced to compensate for the "tax" in encounters when raising isn't necessary). You don't need to reinvent the wheel just to get the wagon moving.

[Kabooa]

one

Two.

One: Lol. They also said they don't factor in healer DPS into damage checks. Times change - so do their design philosophies, especially as the tank and healer roles have shown, but it's equally apparent with the DPS if you're paying attention.

Two: You're right, additional changes would be needed.

[ItMe]

And BLM gets infinite MP and four Swiftcasts every minute, largely used for mobility - which given hypothetical access to Raise, would put it above RDM on rez potential (since it's 4 rezzes + 1/Lucid).

Oh gooooood.
I just thought about Rez on BLM as a conceptual thing. I didn't even think about how it would work with it's kit. Umbral ice and triple cast alone show me how wonky putting Rez on BLM could be.

[Archwizard]

One: Lol. They also said they don't factor in healer DPS into damage checks. Times change - so do their design philosophies, especially as the tank and healer roles have shown, but it's equally apparent with the DPS if you're paying attention.

It was a good enough argument for them to keep Trick Attack and bring back Bard Songs, so on some level they still believe it into Shadowbringers.

Change is inevitable, but specific change is not guaranteed. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to be swayed on this particular philosophy.

Two: You're right, additional changes would be needed.

Exactly. So with regards to the "Raise Tax", there's the simple solution of addressing the two DPS that already have Raise directly, OR the complicated one you suggest of giving Raise to everyone, rebalancing all of them to compensate, and reworking high-end encounters to account for the increased access to the ability to cheese.
Triplecast? Yeet, which means a whole redesign to BLM as a job to adjust its mobility. Tank immunities? Can't have someone immuning through a wipe and rezzing a healer to LB3.

I told you, I cannot count the ways that would be broken. You'd have to smash the entire game with a hammer, and all you would get out of it is more work for the devs and a lot of jobs being homogenized, all to end up at the same stage of "balance" you could get from addressing those original two instead.

[Kabooa]

Exactly. So with regards to the "Raise Tax", there's the simple solution of addressing the two DPS that already have Raise directly, OR the complicated one you suggest of giving Raise to everyone, rebalancing all of them to compensate, and reworking high-end encounters to account for the increased access to the ability to cheese.
Triplecast? Yeet, which means a whole redesign to BLM as a job to adjust its mobility. Tank immunities? Can't have someone immuning through a wipe and rezzing a healer to LB3.

I told you, I cannot count the ways that would be broken. You'd have to smash the entire game with a hammer, and all you would get out of it is more work for the devs and a lot of jobs being homogenized, all to end up at the same stage of "balance" you could get from addressing those original two instead.

Uh...why?

Most auto-wipe scenarios bypass immunity, so I'm not seeing the problem here. Non-auto wipes are no different than shield stacking the healer / covering them so they can achieve the same thing.

And you honestly wouldn't have to worry about how high you can count if you would stop assuming I would change nothing else. Instead I'll get another 20 potency and we'll table this until the next expansion when Green mage comes in with raising and black mage damage.

[ReiMakoto]

Rez on BLM could work like BLU's Angels Whisper res and have a 5+ min cd despite being a gcd. Having a high mana cost and costing a gcd on top of a 5 min cd wouldn't be too broken, but I still dont know why blm would need it other than devaluing "res tax"