What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Bravely_Default]

Don't expect anything until 6.0, problem is only going to get worse. Tank is starting to become the longest waited for role in party finders again now that a chunk of good raiders have already cleared the tier and arn't interested in playing them as tank anymore... might ease up again come 5.4, but same problem will arise a couple months into the cycle. Tank just is a slow role with a shallow depth now and most players, myself included, would rather play faster, engaging, DPS classes. Even "savage" content feels incredibly slow and boring as tank once you get the boss fight memorized. Newer players to tanks might feel overwhelmed with the responsibility of mitigation, positioning, and pace setting when they pick up tank, but once you get used to it, the role is just the simplest to play and has the lowest APM rates of any DPS class. Even gunbreaker falls short in actions per minute compared to all of the melee dps, and probably all of the ranged/caster dps as well. Healers understandably might have a lower end APM rate as well, but they are tasked with the responsibility of monitoring the party at all times. Tanks are tasked with boss focus,mechanics,and ability use like any other DPS just with an enmity modifier slapped onto them and a bulky defence. So why is their APM so low by comparison even in end game content?

[Kabooa]

So why is their APM so low by comparison even in end game content?

Would slashing your OGCD potency and recast by 50% really be that interesting to you?

[BarretOblivion]

Don't expect anything until 6.0, problem is only going to get worse. Tank is starting to become the longest waited for role in party finders again now that a chunk of good raiders have already cleared the tier and arn't interested in playing them as tank anymore... might ease up again come 5.4, but same problem will arise a couple months into the cycle. Tank just is a slow role with a shallow depth now and most players, myself included, would rather play faster, engaging, DPS classes. Even "savage" content feels incredibly slow and boring as tank once you get the boss fight memorized. Newer players to tanks might feel overwhelmed with the responsibility of mitigation, positioning, and pace setting when they pick up tank, but once you get used to it, the role is just the simplest to play and has the lowest APM rates of any DPS class. Even gunbreaker falls short in actions per minute compared to all of the melee dps, and probably all of the ranged/caster dps as well. Healers understandably might have a lower end APM rate as well, but they are tasked with the responsibility of monitoring the party at all times. Tanks are tasked with boss focus,mechanics,and ability use like any other DPS just with an enmity modifier slapped onto them and a bulky defence. So why is their APM so low by comparison even in end game content?

Its probably going to be Healers honestly with the longer wait times. Healing is in a bit of a worse spot than tanking.

[Ultimatecalibur]

So why is their APM so low by comparison even in end game content?

Because the game is not designed for double weaving ogcds and tanks need to be able to use various cooldowns in practically any part of their rotation. You can actually see why this is a problem if a tank buster or tank swap happens during a GNB's Continuation combo. Tanks actually have one of the highest ogcd action totals in the game but most of them are situational use rather than use on cooldown.

[Tint]

The lack is of course the usual tankxiety.

Even if the tank is not the "leader" of the party, the tank is responsible for the gameplay of everyone else in the party. The tank pulls and places the mobs, wich has direct impact on the gameplay of the DDs, and his cooldown management has direct impact on the gameplay of the healer.

Tanks act - while everyone else reacts. And to a good degree they react to the stuff the tank did.

While that is not too difficult, it is a burden on the tank. Plus as a tank you have to use your cooldowns before the damage happens. So you have to know the fights in and out and have to remember the names of dozens of tankbusters.

The expectations on a tank are high. Especially when everyone says the role is so easy to play.


And then we have the dumbed down gameplay. Personally I loved DRK so much in Heavensward that I picked it up and was biting me through the tankxiety. And with social anxiety in real life it was a hard way for me.
But now in ShB? Why should I deal with it anymore? All what is left are the annoying DDs and healers, but the gameplay reward is gone.

[Satarn]

Because the game is not designed for double weaving ogcds and tanks need to be able to use various cooldowns in practically any part of their rotation. You can actually see why this is a problem if a tank buster or tank swap happens during a GNB's Continuation combo. Tanks actually have one of the highest ogcd action totals in the game but most of them are situational use rather than use on cooldown.

How is it not designed for double weaving? The game is known for having unusually long gcd and not many jobs reduce it enough to eliminate the second weaving window(pretty much just MNK - which is only now with GS4, SB MNK was totally double weaving a bunch too - and MCH during Hypercharge). Maybe try playing something other than tank for a bit, because DPS and healers definitely have double weaving in their game-play. You may argue that it doesn't work that well in practice for people with ping issues, but that doesn't change that design itself offers room for 2 ogcds after most instant casts - and optimal game-play on practically every job takes advantage of that. Just looking at AST's Malefic change in SB is clear evidence that devs consider 1 second as sufficient space for one ogcd, while game gives you over 2 seconds on jobs with speed buffs, let alone current tanks.

As for mitigation - HW and SB DRK had very high apms with lots of consistent weaving and somehow managed, even with lowered gcd during BW(and they were far more engaging for it). The issue with Continuation isn't ogcds - it's ogcds in very specific window without much room for flexibility, because you have to hit them between combo steps or else they're gone(coupled with other damage ogcds you want to fit within the same time for raid buffs).
This is actually to a lesser degree a problem with reworked DRK as well, because instead of having their weaving more spread through entire rotation cycle like in the past, DRKs now have to jam most of their APM into raid buff windows to be optimal, resulting in double weaving gcd after gcd, which reduces spaces for moving those abilities around a little to make room for non-damage cooldowns.

[Ultimatecalibur]

How is it not designed for double weaving? The game is known for having unusually long gcd and not many jobs reduce it enough to eliminate the second weaving window(pretty much just MNK - which is only now with GS4, SB MNK was totally double weaving a bunch too - and MCH during Hypercharge).

The designers explicitly designed the game for a higher ping. Double weaving has always being optimal but not intended or designed for. Double weaving started out as something only low ping players could reliably do. Over the past 7 years, high speed internet and infrastructure improvements have allowed a much larger variety of players to double weave, but at its core the game is not designed for it.

Maybe try playing something other than tank for a bit, because DPS and healers definitely have double weaving in their game-play.

Oh, I do. I have all jobs at max level if you cared to check, but that does not change that none of them were designed for double weaving and that the tanks' limited amount of ogcd offensive abilities is there to allow for space for defensive gcd usage.

[BarretOblivion]

The designers explicitly designed the game for a higher ping. Double weaving has always being optimal but not intended or designed for. Double weaving started out as something only low ping players could reliably do. Over the past 7 years, high speed internet and infrastructure improvements have allowed a much larger variety of players to double weave, but at its core the game is not designed for it.

Oh, I do. I have all jobs at max level if you cared to check, but that does not change that none of them were designed for double weaving and that the tanks' limited amount of ogcd offensive abilities is there to allow for space for defensive gcd usage.

What you are saying though shows you don't know GNB. If you played it for a while you would understand the continuation combo OGCDs are unique as they have a much shorter que/delay than any other OGCD to the point its favorable to double weave with another OGCD during continuation. If you actually play all the jobs and test them you realize some of them have certain OGCDs that have short delays promoting double weaving.

[HeulGDarian]

What you are saying though shows you don't know GNB. If you played it for a while you would understand the continuation combo OGCDs are unique as they have a much shorter que/delay than any other OGCD to the point its favorable to double weave with another OGCD during continuation. If you actually play all the jobs and test them you realize some of them have certain OGCDs that have short delays promoting double weaving.

ok w8 what O.o. Double weaving is not a common sense? i mean it wasnt for me sure but then my friends pointed out that i could and i havent stopped doing it in every job , nobody is saying problems with double weaving and ping either except mch .

i know youre not the one who said it im just asking

[Satarn]

Oh, I do. I have all jobs at max level if you cared to check, but that does not change that none of them were designed for double weaving and that the tanks' limited amount of ogcd offensive abilities is there to allow for space for defensive gcd usage.

Man, I've had all jobs leveled for a long-ass time and that doesn't change that I know jack-all about how to optimally play a lot of them. Leveling something doesn't mean you know how it actually works in raid setting, how its skills interact with game mechanics and so on(which is something you need to consider if you wanna talk about job design). You can easily faceroll your way to 80 on any job without even learning basic things about it.

If you think that the game was really designed for "high ping" in western terms(yes, that matters because Japanese internet is generally better, not to mention you'll naturally get way better ping if you only connect to servers on the same, relatively small island, compared to a huge continent and you can bet your ass that JP devs mostly take their own country into account) then how did they ever add such a system as Ninjutsu, which was straight up designed for triple weaving originally? Why their answer to AST complaints about weaving space was giving them just 1 second after Malefic, less than half of what you get when double weaving in most cases?

If tanks are specially designed with limited weaving to let them use cds, then why did DRK have so much weaving in HW and SB? Hell, up until 4.3 you needed to apply Dark Arts before Dark Mind to get its full power and good luck finding a space where that Dark Arts wouldn't get spent by your next gcd if you refused to double weave it, when majority of your gcds ate it. That at the same time with having a 10% speed buff with a pretty high uptime, mind you.

Not to mention even if you were right(which I'm sure you're not, as evidenced by numerous design examples provided) - who the hell cares about "intended design"? The game is supposed to be fun and people had fun playing weaving-heavy HW DRK as preferred MT - which definitely required continued mitigation usage. You act like it's inconceivable to have a tank that has to weave with high frequency, but we've literally already had one for 4 freaking years.