Current Dungeon Environment is Extremely Toxic

[elioaiko]

How exactly is pulling big in a dungeon toxic? No one is trying to speedrun dungeons, they're trying to get it over with without wasting time.

Yeah with your friends you can mess around and move at your own pace. But with randoms? You need to be respectful of their time because you don't know them and they don't know you. You can tell your friends you wanna be zoned put and stream (at that point, why even queue with randoms if you wanna watch stuff in the background).

As someone who has ran dungeons on all three roles, dungeons are VERY easy. So much so that they're just hallways after a certain point.

I can understand someone who is new to the dungeon and wants a slower pull especially on tank or healer. But if you've done it several times, slowing down is wasting others' time. And for why reason? You find it relax to get single pull and waste time when you've done it a bunch already?

Also this notion that raiders bring a mindset and judge others is a pretty wrong. When raiders do dungeons, they usually expect someone who is competent at their role, not top tier raiders.

I've also never met a "toxic" speedrunner in any dungeon. Quite the opposite. Usually it's people that are lazy and refuse to upgrade their gear after months of easy-to-get gear has been out, who have a problem with big pulls. And what do you know, they want slow pulls because they can't be bothered to use a CD, get mad at the healer and vice versa.

Also if you didn't want people to criticize your post, then maybe the title shouldn't have been accustory.

[DarkMasamune]

I never had any issues in dungeons, and I've been playing for quite a while.

To be honest, people do expect sortof big pulls - perhaps not wall to wall but if you stop at the first pack in a level 80 dungeon, yeah, I might raise an eyebrow - because at this point, you should know how to handle them as a tank. If you're not comfortable with big pulls, maybe you should mention it at the start of the dungeon. I've seen that a few times, and it's alright, if the tank has been off the game for a while or whatever reason it is, it is understandable.

Althought in a 80 dungeon, I would take for granted that a tank would be used to this sort of pulls.

[Puremallace]

My current strat is to run in pull the first mob then 1 of 2 things happens!
1. The healer runs right passed me and starts chain pulling mobs into me forcing me to burn my Defensive GCD's
2. The healer seems like he AFK easily healing me with no issue so I start pulling more groups.

DPS are just there for show as it is a silent conversation between me and the healer. Tanks are FORCED to do dungeons this way because healers are extremely impatient and will pull if you do not pull. To healers confused I have been in multiple instances where the healer could barely keep me alive in the first mob and I was using Clemency to keep myself plus others in the ground alive while tanking.

This game allows people to swap roles quite easily and there are negatives that come along with that.

Personally as a tank instances that have walls that literally stop healers from chain pulling are my favorite ones. I despise the open ones where they go and pull like 12+ mobs on top of me because they are so 1337 PWNZER GODMODE 369 NO SCOPE HEALS!

[Mavrias]

If you don't even wanna use defensive cooldowns, why are you tanking?

[Puremallace]

If you don't even wanna use defensive cooldowns, why are you tanking?

Since you asked the Defensive cooldowns are not on short CD's and I go in with the label TANK. When I pull a pack I position them in a specific way facing away from the dps and start my rotations. I do not know if I am dealing with a noob healer or some pro 30+ year MMO healer god.

When healers start pulling ahead of the tank instead of managing say 4 or 5 enemies I now have to manage 10 or more adds. I do not know who is in the group or what their gear level is. It is not like I have RaiderIO to mouse over someone to see if they are new or some raider level geared person.

It does not matter what MMO you are playing pulling ahead of the tank without saying anything is by far the most annoying thing in all of existence. Most tank I know will just let the person die. What is VERY VERY different about FF14 is in other MMO's it is dps who do it or try to rush but in FF14 it is healers.

[HyoMinPark]

The current, I guess you can call it "meta", in terms of running dungeons seems to be to just blindly run in and pull everything at once and the party tries to AoE everything down as fast as possible. Sometimes that works. I'd say about 75% of the time it doesn't, and most other cases it's completely unnecessary. And yet at some point between Stormblood's release (when I first joined the game mind you) and today it's become so ingrained in people's psyche that they somehow need to treat every dungeon like some kind of speedrun, regardless of party makeup, the capabilities of the other players, dungeon layout, or any other aspect worth taking into consideration.

It really isn’t that hard for most jobs at the higher levels—and especially at level cap—to AOE down mobs. There’s no real reason to pull 3 mobs at a time when DPS + tank + healer AOE can obliterate 7~10 mobs at a time in the same amount of time that it would take to just kill 3. And this “speed run” mentality that you describe is not anything new. It existed long before you started playing FFXIV. People were speedrunning level 50 Expert dungeons back in ARR 6~7 years ago. They were speedrunning them back when I started in 2015.

The thing with dungeons is, a lot of players have already ran them many, many times over the course of their FFXIV careers. A lot of them don’t want to “stop and smell the roses”, so to speak, when it comes to doing most dungeons, and Expert dungeons especially—which have usually always been the 2 same dungeons in a single roulette, and sometimes there’s a third one shoved in there for “more variety”. Dungeons aren’t and have never been difficult pieces of content, and even on Day 1 of them releasing, people aren’t taking things slow to take in the sights. Sure, some may—and that’s perfectly fine. But when the content has been out for a while and most of the playerbase has ran it several times during their weekly capping sprees, you can’t really expect for them to go slow all the time.

Ultimately, it’s up to the majority of the party to decide how fast things go. If 3 out of 4 want to go fast, well then the oddball out will either have to adjust, or leave and find a group that would rather take things slow.

It's something that even happens in lower level dungeons. A tank thinks they can apply that mindset to, say, Tam-Tara, but doesn't take into account that they don't have as many abilities available compared to running a lvl 80 Expert roulette. This more often than not results in tanks getting themselves killed, a healer being overworked, tanks losing agro on several mobs and getting the healer killed, party wipes, and generally more time wasted than if they had just taken a few extra seconds and not try to blast through everything.

It’s quite rare nowadays to see a tank lose aggro on anything unless they just don’t know how to properly tank. Enmity is a joke, and all tanks have damaging AOEs by the time they can enter a dungeon. So AOEing is no problem at all for them. DPS and healers don’t necessarily have AOE at those levels (some DPS do—like the physical ranged and casters have some kind of AOE, but the melee don’t get them until later), but even still, the mobs in the baby dungeons don’t live very long to be threatening unless you have a tank and a healer who have no idea what they are doing. Or they’re in something like crafting/gathering/glamour gear (yeah, that still happens).

Most tanks don't even ask the party if it's okay for them to pull big, they just go without any regard for the rest of the group. Other times a healer or DPS will just run ahead and agro everything ahead of the party, ruining dungeon flow. None of these scenarios benefit anyone.

I’d wager that most don’t ask because it’s basically standard (at least, on NA servers) to do 2~3 packs of mobs at a time in most dungeons. They all tend to have a “standard set of pulls” and how things are pulled on this data center. The only real times I’ve seen a tank ask a healer if it’s okay to pull big is if the healer announces that they are new, or if they appear to be undergeared for the dungeon.

The party can always adjust afterwards if wipes occur. There’s no harm in doing that, just like there’s no harm in testing out a larger pull to see if the party is up to par to handle it.

Just yesterday I was tanking Grand Cosmos, and the healer actually Rescue'd me out of the first batch of mobs because apparently I wasn't moving fast enough for them, ruining the rest of the party's AoE placements at the same time. And yet I was the one that got votekicked out of the group because I called them out for acting so petty instead of just simply asking for me to pull more.

I disagree with healers using Rescue as a method of forcing tanks to pull more (over simply just asking them do so). That’s my personal opinion on the matter, and I’m sorry that happened to you. I agree that they should have asked.

Dungeons were one aspect of the game where I could just zone out, maybe have a stream playing in the background, and just enjoy a 20 to 25 minute run a day. But more and more people are for whatever reason making this speedrun mindset the default, and are making dungeons less bearable to work with as a result, and Trust runs don't exactly reward tomestones to my knowledge. Anyone that apparently doesn't comply are considered to be slowing things down, even if the completion time difference is minimal.

That’s your prerogative if you want a 20~25 minute run—but as someone who has done every dungeon in this game so many times it’s unreal, that’s not how I would personally want to spend it. I’d wager there’s a lot of other players that feel the same way.

As I said before, the “speedrun mindset” isn’t new. It’s been around for a long time.

Either something needs to be done to dungeons that discourages blindly mass pulling everything, or something needs to be implemented to discourage people from being antagonistic simply because someone doesn't want to run a dungeon a certain way.

The developers have made attempts at forcing players to stop pulled by creating walls. Hullbreaker HM is a good example of this, as well as a few others. But forcing stops and building walls between trash packs also has its fair share of player criticism. With regards to the dungeon I just mentioned, it wasn’t threatening when it released; so being forced into 3~4 mob pulls really just made it drag. Speaking for myself and my group of friends.

Put simply: there’s not enough going on when developers put walls between pulls, so it makes the dungeon feel tedious and boring to some. As a healer, especially. We already barely do much healing. Larger pulls are refreshing in the sense that sometimes we actually have to press our healing buttons.



EDIT: Wow, I really don’t miss the character limit on here.

I won’t pretend “those” players don’t exist. Ya know those <Perfect Legend> players that bring their Savage mindset into the most basic content IE dungeons, even though you can screw up your rotation and have 1/2 DPS die and screw up most of the mechs and still not cause any notable damage to the run.

But tbh that rarely happens it’s not every run, Rarely I get those PL Tanks judging the DPS of brand New 80 people, or Healers scorning the tank for not wall-to-walling the area. Dungeons aren’t hard some are mind numbing if your a DPS and since it’s not hard interesting players tend to focus on speed. But again this doesn’t happen often to be a concern

Ah. I’m glad to see that while I was gone, the “blame the raiders” posts didn’t go anywhere.

Dungeons aren’t Savage. They’re much easier. Hence why doing them quickly really shouldn’t be as big of an issue as people make it out to be. And honestly, it’s rarely the raiders that I see acting toxic in dungeons—but that’s just my personal anecdote.

ANYWAYS. It’s not rocket science to do a dungeon quickly and efficiently. And “brand new 80 people” have been playing this game for 80 levels already. I’m sure that they should have learned how to properly:

—Use defensives and dodge the bad as a tank (and AOE)
—Make good use of their healing kit as a healer (and AOE)
—Spam your AOE combo/spell mindlessly and dodge the bad (as a DPS)

If they haven’t, then they need to go back and practice their job/role. These things are fairly standard from the moment you choose a role, so they should really be ingrained into you by the time you’re at level cap. You aren’t new to the game at level 80, so I personally don’t see that as a really decent excuse. Especially because Expert dungeons are easier than leveling dungeons due to item level scaling.

[Mavrias]

Since you asked the Defensive cooldowns are not on short CD's and I go in with the label TANK. When I pull a pack I position them in a specific way facing away from the dps and start my rotations. I do not know if I am dealing with a noob healer or some pro 30+ year MMO healer god.

When healers start pulling ahead of the tank instead of managing say 4 or 5 enemies I now have to manage 10 or more adds. I do not know who is in the group or what their gear level is. It is not like I have RaiderIO to mouse over someone to see if they are new or some raider level geared person.

It does not matter what MMO you are playing pulling ahead of the tank without saying anything is by far the most annoying thing in all of existence. Most tank I know will just let the person die. What is VERY VERY different about FF14 is in other MMO's it is dps who do it or try to rush but in FF14 it is healers.

"manage" that's a weird way to describe hitting the enemies with your AoE combo and manage your cooldowns, which you should be doing even if you're going to small pull. Pulling large simply makes managing your defensives easier as you are maximizing damage mitigated per usage.

[EaMett]

The tank's only "privilege" in that situation is that they'll get an instant queue into a new dungeon when the party inevitably kicks them for trying to force the group into going slow (or fast, if its the opposite situation.)

Its a team game and majority rules. You're not special just because you happen to be on a job with the blue icon.

"toughest role to play" let's not act like the tanks job gets harder between pull sizes. you hit cooldowns and spam your aoe whether you pull small or wall to wall.

This, lol.
Realistically, the healer sets the pace. Tanking 5 or 20 mobs doesn't change anything for the tank, aoe rotation + mitigation rotation. There's only a slight difference in the amount of AOEs you need to step out of. Tanking 5 or 20 mobs doesn't change anything for the DPS. Tanking 5 or 20 mobs changes everything for the healer. It's the healer's privilege to set the pace. If it's too hard you need to slow down and pick fewer mobs, if it's too easy you need to wall pull.
To better illustrate. If you're a tank and you grab a single pack, stand there and aoe dps. Then the healer grabs another pack, brings them to you and stands on you. You've literally done NOTHING different and should not feel entitled to complain.
If the healer can heal through their decisions, they get to make them.

Also, and people don't say this enough. MP management needs to be considered and wall to wall pulls really benefit players in that regard.

The standard should be to pull large. If you have doubts or want to make sure your healer can follow, just ask at the start of the dungeon. And if someone pulls small healers can ask to pull large instead. If the tank refuses and you're in a rush you can votekick them.

[RealHounder1971]

Honestly, a few of the posts seemed pretty up there on the -I shall use the term- elitist level.

Let's face one simple fact: when you run a roulette, you are almost always with a group of individuals that you do not know. You do not know their skill level/experience with the dungeon unless someone says it is their first time. You don't know if the person playing any specific character is drunk off their butt (fun , but seriously can make lives miserable). You do not know if that person has connection issues. Lert's are plenty of "you do not knows" to go around. You can assume, but you know what happens there.

Best thing to do is - personally, start small and build up, unless everyone agrees at the start to go a certain way. That way, you can gauge the other players abilities and go from there.

You gotta pay attention to those fun details. Example, I was healing on Mt Gulg, and the tank ran out and pulled 4 groups, then got mad at me and started telling me after the wipe how I was supposed to be using all these various skills, like Temperance. I had to point out to the oblivious one a detail he missed: I was level 79 (Temperance is level 80), not to mention we had just started the dungeon and I obviously had to build up the lilies from zero on top of everything, thus lowering the skills I could use quickly. Of course, the group whined that they now couldn't pull as big because of the under-powered healer. We did get through the rest of it just fine on the next try. Needless to say, I am glad I haven't seen that tank since.

In the end, if you can't handle the idea about how random groups may not be able to do things the way you want, then there is only one solution: Don't do randoms/roulettes. It will save you a lot of mental anguish.

[Anya_Synia]

Big pulls are only toxic if the party cant handle them, and the tank keeps pulling regardless of the party wiping, other than that big pulls are pretty much expected.

However you can ask the party to slow down and tell them at the beginning if you are new, it's about communication.