Current Dungeon Environment is Extremely Toxic

[Payotz]

tank sets the pace. that's how it is in any MMO. the group can request the tank to pull bigger but ultimately the tank has the privilege to set the pace. It's the toughest role to play and anyone who's willing to play the role gets rewarded with that privilege.

...
You turn on tank stance. You press the shiny "Rampart" button, and then you play as a DPS

Tanks in this game are literally DPS with damage mitigation. Pressing Rampart while spamming two buttons for AoE(sometimes a third button), does not make it the toughest role

[TyrTry]

tank sets the pace. that's how it is in any MMO. the group can request the tank to pull bigger but ultimately the tank has the privilege to set the pace. It's the toughest role to play and anyone who's willing to play the role gets rewarded with that privilege.

The only privilege a tank has is to get punched in the face a lot. Hardly the toughest role; you run to a mob, do an AoE combo, and press a few cool downs. The only "privilege" I see with this mindset is the massive ego that comes along with it.

[Kalameet]

The only privilege a tank has is to get punched in the face a lot. Hardly the toughest role; you run to a mob, do an AoE combo, and press a few cool downs. The only "privilege" I see with this mindset is the massive ego that comes along with it.

You're not wrong, but it's more than that. The tank's job is to keep mob attention on them and allow everyone else to do what they need to do. If the tank is pulling every mob at once and needing to move every half a second because they pulled mobs with cleaves or AoE swings, it screws with melee DPS positioning, AoE positioning, overworking healer and tank resources, and more. At that point the tank isn't doing their job.

Or if they leave a ranged mob that would normally be a priority target to stand back and nuke the party away from the rest of the pack because tank was too busy running forward like an idiot. Or a tank that gets so absorbed in running forward they don't even notice the healer said they were going AFK briefly and the tank gets the party wiped as a result. Or the tank that blindly runs in a boss encounter while people doing a dungeon for the first time are still in cutscenes.

I've seen just about every manner of blatant incompetence, all with an unnecessary desire to shave a minuscule 60 seconds off the completion time.

[TyrTry]

Let's agree to disagree. In 6/7 years of playing this game, I have seen people asking/agreeing on the pace at the start of a dungeon maybe like... 3 times?

Then you would think in those 6-7 years you would realize that whomever you get in your party sets the pace. If I, the tank, got to set the pace all the time, then all my dungeons would end in the same short amount of time. But they don't. Just because you run to the mobs first just to get smacked around in the face does not make you de facto pace maker of the party.

[Hysterior]

Then you would think in those 6-7 years you would realize that whomever you get in your party sets the pace. If I, the tank, got to set the pace all the time, then all my dungeons would end in the same short amount of time. But they don't. Just because you run to the mobs first just to get smacked around in the face does not make you de facto pace maker of the party.

If as a healer I start popping sprint and run to the first pack of mob, sure the tank will get the message, but 1/ he will probably not appreciate it 2/ I might die
So the tank is clearly the best suited role for setting up the pace of the run.
Even in raids, I would say 80-90% of the time, a tank sets the countdown (and unless there is a fail, they are the ones doing the first hit)
So I don't really get the issue there.

And again, as mentioned in my previous message, using common sense does help. If on the first pull you die, you might want to avoid another WtW.
But that's pretty obvious.

And if in most of your parties people have a discussion from the get go on how the run will be, then lucky you.
On the 2 servers (JP and EU) I played, there is very little of conversation aside of "hello" and "good job" in dungeons / daily roulette.

[TyrTry]

If as a healer I start popping sprint and run to the first pack of mob, sure the tank will get the message, but 1/ he will probably not appreciate it 2/ I might die
So the tank is clearly the best suited role for setting up the pace of the run.
Even in raids, I would say 80-90% of the time, a tank sets the countdown (and unless there is a fail, they are the ones doing the first hit)
So I don't really get the issue there.

And again, as mentioned in my previous message, using common sense does help. If on the first pull you die, you might want to avoid another WtW.
But that's pretty obvious.

And if in most of your parties people have a discussion from the get go on how the run will be, then lucky you.
On the 2 servers (JP and EU) I played, there is very little of conversation aside of "hello" and "good job" in dungeons / daily roulette.

I think we're confusing things, so I'll see if can clarify my point here:

Running to the next mob does not set the pace of the dungeon. Pulling 1-4 mobs or so doesn't mean anything if DPS can't pull a proper rotation or if the healer cannot keep up.

Simply changing the mob count to 1 would still be pointless if neither player knows how to play their class properly.

It is not up to the tank to decide if the dps can so their job properly; it's the dps's. It is not up to the tank to decide if the healer can keep up; it's the healer's.

All the tank has to do is run ahead and get slapped silly for awhile until the mob eventually dies or you wipe. Just because nobody speaks up does not mean you're automatically voted the decider of how fast the dungeon goes. That's just entitlement.

[TyrTry]

I've seen just about every manner of blatant incompetence, all with an unnecessary desire to shave a minuscule 60 seconds off the completion time.

I'm well aware of a tank's responsibilities and I still state that no, the job is not that complicated nor is it the "hardest". Each role comes with certain responsibilities and expectations that come with their own challenges. Tanks are no more special or privileged than the healer or the dps you have running with the party.

[Elkanah]

the tank has the privilege to set the pace. It's the toughest role to play and anyone who's willing to play the role gets rewarded with that privilege.

Whooaaaaa whoa whoa. Easy there. Let's not jump chocobos just yet. I've been playing since 1.0, and Tanks have never been tougher today as they had been back in the day. It's so faceroll easy as each expansion releases. It hasn't been a good challenge since Heavensward released their skill sets of tank to dps stance. But all dungeons have been exactly the same (aside from sac pull dungeons at 50 when ARR first released). Savage has been straight forward for tanks, as well as extreme mode trials. We have the least bit stressful job lol. I actually want MORE stress as a tank. Otherwise, I fall asleep during dungeons and content for being extremely easy xD

[Jirah]

tank sets the pace. that's how it is in any MMO. the group can request the tank to pull bigger but ultimately the tank has the privilege to set the pace. It's the toughest role to play and anyone who's willing to play the role gets rewarded with that privilege.

Hardest role? Dungeons aren’t exactly complex. With Aggro no longer being a thing Tanks are just as easy as DPS with more basic AOEs. Just walk to wall, aoe pop a CD now and again and that’s literally all the tank does

[KalinOrthos]

You're not wrong, but it's more than that. The tank's job is to keep mob attention on them and allow everyone else to do what they need to do. If the tank is pulling every mob at once and needing to move every half a second because they pulled mobs with cleaves or AoE swings, it screws with melee DPS positioning, AoE positioning, overworking healer and tank resources, and more. At that point the tank isn't doing their job.

Or if they leave a ranged mob that would normally be a priority target to stand back and nuke the party away from the rest of the pack because tank was too busy running forward like an idiot. Or a tank that gets so absorbed in running forward they don't even notice the healer said they were going AFK briefly and the tank gets the party wiped as a result. Or the tank that blindly runs in a boss encounter while people doing a dungeon for the first time are still in cutscenes.

I've seen just about every manner of blatant incompetence, all with an unnecessary desire to shave a minuscule 60 seconds off the completion time.

I'm a tank main. I have been ever since I took my first MMO babysteps in Everquest. I've always gravitated towards tank builds in games that don't have dedicated tanks, like in Blade and Soul, Monster Hunter, and most recently in PSO2. I will continue to be a tank main for the rest of my gamer life. So please, trust me when I say this, to you, as someone who has dedicated her gamer life to boss positioning, taking hits, and being a wall for her companions:

Get over yourself.

I'm not going to say tanking in FFXIV is braindead, but it's much, much easier than you're implying. Sure, you dictate the pace in how fast mobs are pulled, but it's the entire party that dictates how fast the dungeon moves: DPS need to cleave the enemies down before the healer's MP runs out, effectively giving you a timer. You are not the sole arbiter of the pace of the run as the tank; you're just the mook who is in charge of letting your DPS do their jobs. Genuinely, get your head out of the clouds about your role and just pull more; you clearly can do it.