Current Dungeon Environment is Extremely Toxic

[ForteNightshade]

Since you asked the Defensive cooldowns are not on short CD's and I go in with the label TANK. When I pull a pack I position them in a specific way facing away from the dps and start my rotations. I do not know if I am dealing with a noob healer or some pro 30+ year MMO healer god.

When healers start pulling ahead of the tank instead of managing say 4 or 5 enemies I now have to manage 10 or more adds. I do not know who is in the group or what their gear level is. It is not like I have RaiderIO to mouse over someone to see if they are new or some raider level geared person.

It does not matter what MMO you are playing pulling ahead of the tank without saying anything is by far the most annoying thing in all of existence. Most tank I know will just let the person die. What is VERY VERY different about FF14 is in other MMO's it is dps who do it or try to rush but in FF14 it is healers.

Actually, I find it far more annoying when tanks pull three mobs, especially as a healer because I literally do nothing but spam Holy/Glare. Seriously. Baby pulls deal such negligible damage there just isn't an excuse for it by level 60, let alone 80. By this point, you should already be experimenting with medium sized pulls—which very rarely cause problems unless you truly have an... unfortunate group.

Besides, if someone else pulls. Take it as an opportunity to challenge yourself risk free. If you die despite rotating your CDs properly, you can blame the Healer/DPS for catching you off guard. If you live, you've now learned you can handle big pulls. It's a win/win, really.

[EthanXdeath]

Actually, I find it far more annoying when tanks pull three mobs, especially as a healer because I literally do nothing but spam Holy/Glare. Seriously. Baby pulls deal such negligible damage there just isn't an excuse for it by level 60, let alone 80. By this point, you should already be experimenting with medium sized pulls—which very rarely cause problems unless you truly have an... unfortunate group.

Besides, if someone else pulls. Take it as an opportunity to challenge yourself risk free. If you die despite rotating your CDs properly, you can blame the Healer/DPS for catching you off guard. If you live, you've now learned you can handle big pulls. It's a win/win, really.

As someone who mains DRK and absolutely hates WAR, I generally like to hit the adds twice with an AoE before moving onto the next pack of mobs, just to make sure I maintain aggro for ranged physical dps and healers. I don't like it when healers run ahead of me for this reason.

[HyoMinPark]

The current, I guess you can call it "meta", in terms of running dungeons seems to be to just blindly run in and pull everything at once and the party tries to AoE everything down as fast as possible. Sometimes that works. I'd say about 75% of the time it doesn't, and most other cases it's completely unnecessary. And yet at some point between Stormblood's release (when I first joined the game mind you) and today it's become so ingrained in people's psyche that they somehow need to treat every dungeon like some kind of speedrun, regardless of party makeup, the capabilities of the other players, dungeon layout, or any other aspect worth taking into consideration.

It really isn’t that hard for most jobs at the higher levels—and especially at level cap—to AOE down mobs. There’s no real reason to pull 3 mobs at a time when DPS + tank + healer AOE can obliterate 7~10 mobs at a time in the same amount of time that it would take to just kill 3. And this “speed run” mentality that you describe is not anything new. It existed long before you started playing FFXIV. People were speedrunning level 50 Expert dungeons back in ARR 6~7 years ago. They were speedrunning them back when I started in 2015.

The thing with dungeons is, a lot of players have already ran them many, many times over the course of their FFXIV careers. A lot of them don’t want to “stop and smell the roses”, so to speak, when it comes to doing most dungeons, and Expert dungeons especially—which have usually always been the 2 same dungeons in a single roulette, and sometimes there’s a third one shoved in there for “more variety”. Dungeons aren’t and have never been difficult pieces of content, and even on Day 1 of them releasing, people aren’t taking things slow to take in the sights. Sure, some may—and that’s perfectly fine. But when the content has been out for a while and most of the playerbase has ran it several times during their weekly capping sprees, you can’t really expect for them to go slow all the time.

Ultimately, it’s up to the majority of the party to decide how fast things go. If 3 out of 4 want to go fast, well then the oddball out will either have to adjust, or leave and find a group that would rather take things slow.

It's something that even happens in lower level dungeons. A tank thinks they can apply that mindset to, say, Tam-Tara, but doesn't take into account that they don't have as many abilities available compared to running a lvl 80 Expert roulette. This more often than not results in tanks getting themselves killed, a healer being overworked, tanks losing agro on several mobs and getting the healer killed, party wipes, and generally more time wasted than if they had just taken a few extra seconds and not try to blast through everything.

It’s quite rare nowadays to see a tank lose aggro on anything unless they just don’t know how to properly tank. Enmity is a joke, and all tanks have damaging AOEs by the time they can enter a dungeon. So AOEing is no problem at all for them. DPS and healers don’t necessarily have AOE at those levels (some DPS do—like the physical ranged and casters have some kind of AOE, but the melee don’t get them until later), but even still, the mobs in the baby dungeons don’t live very long to be threatening unless you have a tank and a healer who have no idea what they are doing. Or they’re in something like crafting/gathering/glamour gear (yeah, that still happens).

Most tanks don't even ask the party if it's okay for them to pull big, they just go without any regard for the rest of the group. Other times a healer or DPS will just run ahead and agro everything ahead of the party, ruining dungeon flow. None of these scenarios benefit anyone.

I’d wager that most don’t ask because it’s basically standard (at least, on NA servers) to do 2~3 packs of mobs at a time in most dungeons. They all tend to have a “standard set of pulls” and how things are pulled on this data center. The only real times I’ve seen a tank ask a healer if it’s okay to pull big is if the healer announces that they are new, or if they appear to be undergeared for the dungeon.

The party can always adjust afterwards if wipes occur. There’s no harm in doing that, just like there’s no harm in testing out a larger pull to see if the party is up to par to handle it.

Just yesterday I was tanking Grand Cosmos, and the healer actually Rescue'd me out of the first batch of mobs because apparently I wasn't moving fast enough for them, ruining the rest of the party's AoE placements at the same time. And yet I was the one that got votekicked out of the group because I called them out for acting so petty instead of just simply asking for me to pull more.

I disagree with healers using Rescue as a method of forcing tanks to pull more (over simply just asking them do so). That’s my personal opinion on the matter, and I’m sorry that happened to you. I agree that they should have asked.

Dungeons were one aspect of the game where I could just zone out, maybe have a stream playing in the background, and just enjoy a 20 to 25 minute run a day. But more and more people are for whatever reason making this speedrun mindset the default, and are making dungeons less bearable to work with as a result, and Trust runs don't exactly reward tomestones to my knowledge. Anyone that apparently doesn't comply are considered to be slowing things down, even if the completion time difference is minimal.

That’s your prerogative if you want a 20~25 minute run—but as someone who has done every dungeon in this game so many times it’s unreal, that’s not how I would personally want to spend it. I’d wager there’s a lot of other players that feel the same way.

As I said before, the “speedrun mindset” isn’t new. It’s been around for a long time.

Either something needs to be done to dungeons that discourages blindly mass pulling everything, or something needs to be implemented to discourage people from being antagonistic simply because someone doesn't want to run a dungeon a certain way.

The developers have made attempts at forcing players to stop pulled by creating walls. Hullbreaker HM is a good example of this, as well as a few others. But forcing stops and building walls between trash packs also has its fair share of player criticism. With regards to the dungeon I just mentioned, it wasn’t threatening when it released; so being forced into 3~4 mob pulls really just made it drag. Speaking for myself and my group of friends.

Put simply: there’s not enough going on when developers put walls between pulls, so it makes the dungeon feel tedious and boring to some. As a healer, especially. We already barely do much healing. Larger pulls are refreshing in the sense that sometimes we actually have to press our healing buttons.



EDIT: Wow, I really don’t miss the character limit on here.

I won’t pretend “those” players don’t exist. Ya know those <Perfect Legend> players that bring their Savage mindset into the most basic content IE dungeons, even though you can screw up your rotation and have 1/2 DPS die and screw up most of the mechs and still not cause any notable damage to the run.

But tbh that rarely happens it’s not every run, Rarely I get those PL Tanks judging the DPS of brand New 80 people, or Healers scorning the tank for not wall-to-walling the area. Dungeons aren’t hard some are mind numbing if your a DPS and since it’s not hard interesting players tend to focus on speed. But again this doesn’t happen often to be a concern

Ah. I’m glad to see that while I was gone, the “blame the raiders” posts didn’t go anywhere.

Dungeons aren’t Savage. They’re much easier. Hence why doing them quickly really shouldn’t be as big of an issue as people make it out to be. And honestly, it’s rarely the raiders that I see acting toxic in dungeons—but that’s just my personal anecdote.

ANYWAYS. It’s not rocket science to do a dungeon quickly and efficiently. And “brand new 80 people” have been playing this game for 80 levels already. I’m sure that they should have learned how to properly:

—Use defensives and dodge the bad as a tank (and AOE)
—Make good use of their healing kit as a healer (and AOE)
—Spam your AOE combo/spell mindlessly and dodge the bad (as a DPS)

If they haven’t, then they need to go back and practice their job/role. These things are fairly standard from the moment you choose a role, so they should really be ingrained into you by the time you’re at level cap. You aren’t new to the game at level 80, so I personally don’t see that as a really decent excuse. Especially because Expert dungeons are easier than leveling dungeons due to item level scaling.

[Anya_Synia]

Big pulls are only toxic if the party cant handle them, and the tank keeps pulling regardless of the party wiping, other than that big pulls are pretty much expected.

However you can ask the party to slow down and tell them at the beginning if you are new, it's about communication.

[Quintessa]

Why can't you people just be nice to each other lol.

[TyrTry]

Why can't you people just be nice to each other lol.

Stupid reason, but....internet.

Internet is power and power is like a drink; few people can handle it.

[Puremallace]

You have bad tanks. Only time I chain pull is if I am confident the healer can handle more then one trash pack. They literally added walls into a lot of Shadowbringers dungeons to force you to stop. Nooone has noticed this really but tanks who are used to some pull pull pull healers appreciate them.

[Frizze]

If your default speed is a single pull you are a bad tank. Doesnt matter how effectively you stagger cooldowns, how efficiently you position and aim mobs, how little damage your healer has to take care of, how masterfully you deal with mechanics, or how much aggro control you have over the enemies. If you are doing this after level 50, please consider a job better suited to you.

[HeulGDarian]

If your default speed is a single pull you are a bad tank. Doesnt matter how effectively you stagger cooldowns, how efficiently you position and aim mobs, how little damage your healer has to take care of, how masterfully you deal with mechanics, or how much aggro control you have over the enemies. If you are doing this after level 50, please consider a job better suited to you.

i disagree just cause there is the case of not having gear or actually being new or having a healer with those issues. I will however say that if those things arent an issue and they still single pull dungeons with the excuse this is my playstyle then they are lazy, hinderance to their teammates, unwilling to learn, wasting time and extremely selfish

[Frizze]

i disagree just cause there is the case of not having gear or actually being new or having a healer with those issues. I will however say that if those things arent an issue and they still single pull dungeons with the excuse this is my playstyle then they are lazy, hinderance to their teammates, unwilling to learn, wasting time and extremely selfish

Emphasis mine. So... someone who is a lazy unlearning selfish time wasting hinderance... i feel im safe calling those people bad at whatever job they play. As for new players, yes a lot of them do start out playing bad. Some get better. Bad gear is just a lazy excuse from someone wanting to hinder their team. If your gear is so far behind that you cant do your job, its because you arent upgrading it. The story throws gear at you hand over fist, so your first class should always be well outfitted. And i know im not alone in expecting someone working on a 2nd 3rd or whatever class to know how to keep up with gear and how important it is to their performance. Next, you mention the bad healer case. My exact words were "If your default speed is a single pull". Slowing down pulls because a group cant keep up(and you dont feel like leaving) is totally reasonable behavior. Assuming every healer is bad and therefore always going slow is unreasonable behavior. Also note that i never said pull wall to wall or else, just that your default should be higher then single pull. And my final point would be that final line. Assuming you didnt buy a job skip, by the time youre level 50 you arent really new anymore. Having a tank at level 50 means you played it for 20-50 levels and should have learned what it can do. At 50 every healing class has the means to handle big pulls, and every DPS has aoe moves. By that point, there is no reasonable excuse for always insisting on single pulls.