What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[LeonKeyh]

That is not a hallmark for leadership.

Leading the group isn't leading. Got it.

[Satarn]

Why create an engaging system of enmity generation for tanks when you can simply create an engaging system of damage generation for tanks (the latter being what most people are actually asking for, outside of a few like yourself)?

Nah, I'm actually constantly whining about tank dps mechanics being way too dumbed down as well. I've done so in this very thread too.

The reason I advocate for things beyond dps rotations to have depth added, is simply because I actually like, you know, tanking and want the role to be able to express player skill in more ways than just being a good Blue Icon DPS that happens to take autos. If I just wanted more complex rotation and more damage I already have that on DPS jobs - with tanks I want all of it. With reasonably scaled down dps of course, because trinity rules.

What I want from threat generation is for it to be playing in tandem with the damage mechanics - it's an easy way to add extra variance to the rotation as well as something more to pay attention too, while also making you feel like you're actually making an effort to protect your team. I can not stress that enough - I am not asking for hate mechanics to be restored to how they worked in XIV in the past, as I completely agree it's been done poorly and lacked engagement. If you can't imagine why people would like enmity to be a thing though, then I guess you haven't played games in which that aspect was really impactful to the point where players really noticed it when you were good at it.

I find it strange that you on one hand complain that tanking is too easy because of the enmity changes (which were one of the few things that they got right), and yet you seem to think the idea of tank deaths having more impact is too unforgiving.

I'm not complaining that tanking's been made easy because of enmity changes - I'm complaining that it's been made easy for several reasons(streamlined mitigation, less positioning, braindead damage mechanics on the tank jobs) and that also threat should be a thing tanks pay attention to - those are two separate points.

Neither have I argued against deaths having more impact - just against going so far as to wipe the entire, damn party every time a tank dies. There is also a difference between something being difficult in a challenging way by being easy to fail if you don't pay attention and being just terribly punishing while unlikely to fail. I find the first engaging, the other cheap. As an example - I'd rather have mitigation and enmity require more planning and attention, leading to more frequent tank deaths/aggro drops(if tank isn't doing their job well of course), leading to single DPS/healer deaths every time and thus snowballing into a wipe after happening a couple of times, rather than just missing a single cd once in a blue moon, instantly wiping the group.

"Plenty of people" is essentially hearsay from your surroundings.

Dude, are you going to pretend that SHB hasn't started a mass of difficulty and engagement complaints on the tank and healer side, which were not nearly as prevalent in the previous expansions? You can be content yourself, that's your right and good for you, but you can't argue that nothing changed in terms of player satisfaction.

However, the part where you said that you'd kick a dps for performing low but you'd keep a tank purely based on the criteria that he doesn't die is quite the double standard.

Never said I would do that, just that it's an approach many people have - since you were trying to argue that the community looks harsher at tanks than DPS, which I find untrue. The shit I've seen and heard of tanks do and get away with in savage/ultimate is unreal.

I mained healer for years, I levelled most of the DPS classes, now I got into tanking and I find it waaaay harder.

Tbh everything seems hard when you're only just learning it for the first time.

[Tlamila]

Tbh everything seems hard when you're only just learning it for the first time.

Mh no, not true, as I said I never had similar problems with any other class so, not everything is.

[Seraphor]

What I want from threat generation is for it to be playing in tandem with the damage mechanics - it's an easy way to add extra variance to the rotation as well as something more to pay attention too, while also making you feel like you're actually making an effort to protect your team. I can not stress that enough - I am not asking for hate mechanics to be restored to how they worked in XIV in the past, as I completely agree it's been done poorly and lacked engagement. If you can't imagine why people would like enmity to be a thing though, then I guess you haven't played games in which that aspect was really impactful to the point where players really noticed it when you were good at it.

I'm not complaining that tanking's been made easy because of enmity changes - I'm complaining that it's been made easy for several reasons(streamlined mitigation, less positioning, braindead damage mechanics on the tank jobs) and that also threat should be a thing tanks pay attention to - those are two separate points.

The only issue I have, and it's not really an 'issue' just further counter thoughts, with tying enmity to damage mechanics, is that you will inevitably have some trade off between DPS and threat generation.

Lets just say, making it as simple as possible, that you have a 1-2-3 combo, and an alternative 3rd combo that deals less damage but generates more hate.
Meta will result in ignoring that hate finisher because more DPS is better, and generates enough hate anyway.
If the enmity balance is so close that not using that skill will mean you don't get enough aggro, then that means enmity management is a much bigger issue anyway and because DPS deal so much more damage than tanks you'll need to give DPS their hate sinks back in case they deal too much damage, which would easily be enough to tip the enmity meter.
Either way, tanks will end up feeling 'punished' for using their enmity finisher due to getting less damage out, just as we used to be 'punished' for staying in Tank stance.

Alternatively, if there's no trade-off, if for example tanks are rewarded with more enmity for successfully pulling off their DPS combo correctly... then surely they're dealing more damage anyway, they're already doing what they should be doing, maximising DPS, which means they should be getting the most enmity they can get anyway.


Now, if for example there was no real danger in a tank losing aggro to a DPS/Healer, and was instead just a more elaborate way of pulling off tank swaps, basically more interesting versions of Provoke/Shirk, then sure, I'd be all for that. But they also made those into role skills for a reason, and I don't think they're going to go back on that decision.

[Satarn]

Meta will result in ignoring that hate finisher because more DPS is better, and generates enough hate anyway.
If the enmity balance is so close that not using that skill will mean you don't get enough aggro, then that means enmity management is a much bigger issue anyway and because DPS deal so much more damage than tanks you'll need to give DPS their hate sinks back in case they deal too much damage, which would easily be enough to tip the enmity meter.
Either way, tanks will end up feeling 'punished' for using their enmity finisher due to getting less damage out, just as we used to be 'punished' for staying in Tank stance.

Pushing threat responsibility on DPS rather than tanks as well the feeling of being "punished" when you had to actually use the enmity skills, came from the fact that free aggro dumps made it optimal for combined rDPS to just let the others handle their hate. If the game was designed in such a way that you simply can not get away with that - or at least the dump skills come with a higher cost than tanks' enmity generation skills, then I doubt it would be an issue(well in XIV's case specifically we'd probably need to get over an adjustment period while community gets over the old habits).

The way things worked before, a tank would feel bad using enmity skills not because of the act itself, but because they knew that it was the result of DPS/healer incompetence at pushing their free buttons and because that wasn't optimal - it's similar to when a healer rolls their eyes when they have to waste a gcd/aetherflow to heal somebody who ate an avoidable mechanic.
If managing hate as tank was optimal - because otherwise people will die or have to use more costly aggro dumps - then that feeling should go away and be replaced with satisfaction of doing your job well.

As evidence, look at how it works with healers balancing their own dps and healing - while optimally they want to avoid gcd heals as much as possible, you will still see them using those when needed and it's accepted as part of the job(there's also quite a bit of people asking for that balance between heals and dps to be less one-sided towards dps). The skill of the healer is measured by their ability to utilize their kit to keep the party alive without losing too much damage. I would like to see a similar approach to balancing dps with the ability to protect your group as a tank - make it so the best tanks use their enmity skills just often enough to stay above the rest while still pushing for more damage whenever possible. Maybe throw in some aggro resets or add spawns to make it more reactive too.

[BarretOblivion]

However tanks make mistakes like anyone else due to "stupidity", should they however die during the dragon phase of Shiva you will quickly see the dps dying one by one. And that isn't the only instance where it can quickly spiral downward when a tank dies. Of course, if we are talking about max item level characters then it's more lenient depending on the content you are doing.

Not really. DPS will start getting auto attacked but a quick rez and voke within about a minute can result in 0 deaths outside of the original death. There are far more mechanics where if one person dies everyone dies than those that are tank specific where they just need to do a simple thing with a cooldown. At this point healers/dps have more responsibility than tanks. If DPS die too many times its a wipe due to not having the damage. One healer dead can led to a group wipe because they can't quite solo heal and fall behind keeping the group healthy. A tank? Lol, tank dies but the OT can cover with voke resulting in no change, and DPS loss from tank death can mean nothing.

[Jirah]

among the three tanks are just dummed down dps, if its dungoens ur bascially doing dps with a CD here and there. While DPS has more fun aoes and healers keeping everyone alive, tanks dont do much. "they lead the party" its a corridor unless its aurum vale or longstep which require some leadership in those rooms full of adds, you dont need to rely on them and since aggro is easy to nab u dont need eminty either.

[Jimmymagic]

among the three tanks are just dummed down dps, if its dungoens ur bascially doing dps with a CD here and there. While DPS has more fun aoes and healers keeping everyone alive, tanks dont do much. "they lead the party" its a corridor unless its aurum vale or longstep which require some leadership in those rooms full of adds, you dont need to rely on them and since aggro is easy to nab u dont need eminty either.

Ah no tanks are needed and you are not clearing synced dungeons without em. Also there are four tanks not three.

Tanks set pace, hold agro and position mobs and bosses. A lot more things are being done with a tank then a dps.

[Mavrias]

Ah no tanks are needed and you are not clearing synced dungeons without em. Also there are four tanks not three.

Tanks set pace, hold agro and position mobs and bosses. A lot more things are being done with a tank then a dps.

You can definitely clear synced dungeons without a tank. I've done three dps one healer in expert roulette. Its just requires a bit more attention on everyone's part.

The existence of a tank in dungeons just allows them to be completed faster and more efficiently.

All content at extreme level or lower is like this though. Its why you can clear stuff like Copied Factory or Titania EX as all healers/ all tanks/ all DPS, if most of your group is competent.

[ReiMakoto]

Ah no tanks are needed and you are not clearing synced dungeons without em. Also there are four tanks not three.

Tanks set pace, hold agro and position mobs and bosses. A lot more things are being done with a tank then a dps.

My friends and I semi regularly clear dungeons with all healers and all dps because why not, heres a clip from near expac launch from when amourot was in the ex roullete: https://www.twitch.tv/mrrevolution19...=all&sort=time . Only death was someone falling off the side.