*spoiler* What was the point of making Yda... *spoiler*

[Draginhikari]

But she's not a main character. If Lyse were not even in the story, it remains practically identical. If Lyse isn't there when you first go to Ala Mhigo, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when you visit the Far East, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when Zenos "kills" himself, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there to take charge of the Resistance, nothing significant changes. Is Lyse a distinct enough character to make a decision as leader that Conrad or M'naago wouldn't do? I would argue no. In HW, Estinien had a significant impact on the plot, he was the villian for a good portion of it. In Shadowbringers, the Crystal Exarch had a significant impact on the plot, in fact the entire premise of the story wouldn't exist without him. Main character typically are very important to the plot. Luke going from farmer to Jedi was very important for Star Wars, you couldn't even have Return of the Jedi without his job change. You can't say the same for Lyse.

Frankly, I understand that people may not like Lyse but she is as close to a main character that 4.0 had. Stormblood suffered the same problem as Realm Reborn did from a story context. The need to relay a lot of information, introduce a lot of locations and people very quickly. Anytime they have to do that is always a difficulty with characterization and Lyse just kind of reflects that.

They did tend to use her to drive points of frustration, anxiety, and uncertainty about the war and what the right things to do where. The things she was involved with did drive the direction in the story in certain ways, it just wasn't the most impactful method. I mean if Lyse is not the Main Character of Stormblood, then I'd have a hard time pinning down a Main Character at all.

It's certainly not the Warrior of Light because outside of the conflict with Zenos, the Warrior of Light more than any other expansion just kind of pointed at things that need to die, this only changed in later on in the Expansion when elements of Shadowbringers began to come into play.

[Edax]

Frankly, I understand that people may not like Lyse but she is as close to a main character that 4.0 had. Stormblood suffered the same problem as Realm Reborn did from a story context. The need to relay a lot of information, introduce a lot of locations and people very quickly. Anytime they have to do that is always a difficulty with characterization and Lyse just kind of reflects that.

They did tend to use her to drive points of frustration, anxiety, and uncertainty about the war and what the right things to do where. The things she was involved with did drive the direction in the story in certain ways, it just wasn't the most impactful method. I mean if Lyse is not the Main Character of Stormblood, then I'd have a hard time pinning down a Main Character at all.

It's certainly not the Warrior of Light because outside of the conflict with Zenos, the Warrior of Light more than any other expansion just kind of pointed at things that need to die, this only changed in later on in the Expansion when elements of Shadowbringers began to come into play.

Stormblood's plot is muddled overall with very little focus. Even though the Warrior of Light got far less focus in Stormblood then in HW or ShB, I think the WoL is the central character of Stormblood. Thinking back, the big climax involved Zeno's rivalry with the WoL and all the plots involving the rebellions all lead to that climax. The Warrior of Light ends up having a large impact on the Stormblood plot because it focuses so heavily on Zenos and all Zenos cares about in the end is the Warrior of Light. Zenos can't function without the WoL so the WoL character ends up indispensable to the plot.

Imagine if Zenos had his rivalry with Lyse instead, what that would do for her importance as a character and to the story. Estinien had Nidhogg and the Crystal Exarch had Emet to some extent given their opposing masterplans.

[Draginhikari]

Stormblood's plot is muddled overall with very little focus. Even though the Warrior of Light got far less focus in Stormblood then in HW or ShB, I think the WoL is the central character of Stormblood. Thinking back, the big climax involved Zeno's rivalry with the WoL and all the plots involving the rebellions all lead to that climax. The Warrior of Light ends up having a large impact on the Stormblood plot because it focuses so heavily on Zenos and all Zenos cares about in the end is the Warrior of Light. Zenos can't function without the WoL so the WoL character ends up indispensable to the plot.

Imagine if Zenos had his rivalry with Lyse instead, what that would do for her importance as a character and to the story. Estinien had Nidhogg and the Crystal Exarch had Emet to some extent given their opposing masterplans.

Oddly enough when I played through Stormblood, my mind separates the WoL/Zeno fight from the War side of the effort mostly due to a sheer difference in the motivation between the characters in the story.

The War effort itself keeps the Warrior of Light fairly reattached from the events itself as merely an actor in the story, even with the Warrior of Lights direct involvement, there isn't very much personally at stake in the conflicts of Ala Mhigo or Doma for the Warrior of Light compared to say Heavensward or Shadowbringers where the outcome had a level of personal stake. The War effort is the story of characters like Lyse, Conrad, Hien, Yugiri, and Gotestu then it is the Scions or the Warrior of Light that are there to support their allies, their friends, and to address the continuing conflict.

The more personal element, the rivalry between the Warrior of Light and Zenos were less about the war effort itself and more on how the Zenos kind of a Dark Reflection of the Warrior of Light, the representation of what someone like the WoL could be if they lack the moral and compassion to not become absolute monsters. Zenos, as far of the war efforts, doesn't actually care about any of it as its simply a means to his own ends and will manipulate anyone he feels will get them there. Being defeated once already, the WoL agrees to Yugiri's rather crazy plan only to lose again. It seems more about the WoL proving to themselves that their ways are correct and being strong doesn't mean becoming like Zenos.

The only thing that really unites these two aspects is that defeating Zenos basically resolves both elements. I admit this most my own interpretation of how I observed the story the first time I played through it. So, I suppose in my view Stormblood is less about a central group of character but rather smaller character groups that come into focus as needed with the Warrior of Light remaining the PoV character for anything that is not immediately related to the Zenos rivalry stuff. That's probably why it tends to feel unfocused at times.

[Vyrerus]

But she's not a main character. If Lyse were not even in the story, it remains practically identical. If Lyse isn't there when you first go to Ala Mhigo, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when you visit the Far East, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there when Zenos "kills" himself, nothing significant changes. If Lyse isn't there to take charge of the Resistance, nothing significant changes. Is Lyse a distinct enough character to make a decision as leader that Conrad or M'naago wouldn't do? I would argue no. In HW, Estinien had a significant impact on the plot, he was the villian for a good portion of it. In Shadowbringers, the Crystal Exarch had a significant impact on the plot, in fact the entire premise of the story wouldn't exist without him. Main character typically are very important to the plot. Luke going from farmer to Jedi was very important for Star Wars, you couldn't even have Return of the Jedi without his job change. You can't say the same for Lyse.

This is wrong. Play through again.

At Rhalgr's Reach when the Imperials storm the place and she staves off Fordola, this is what rouses Zenos to actually participate in combat. This leads to his first confrontation with the WoL, and his subsequent withdrawal of his troops. Though it's subtle, her one sided combat with Zenos indirectly stops the Resistance from being snuffed out right then and there. Had Zenos grown bored before the WoL arrived, he would have departed.

Then she travels with the WoL to the Far East, and her next major event aside from beating up that Namazu swindler, is to stave off the Red Kojin alongside Alisae so that the WoL can fight Susano without interference.

Then she meets and relates with the Domans, helping them come up with the will to throw off their shackles, though she takes a side seat after every person on the WoL's team prove themselves at Bardaam's Mettle. She was second to complete the Yol taming trial btw.

After Hien's arc, when we're back in Ala Mhigan territory she picks up again, rallying her own country men. Her beastmen blessing lets her come with us to open the gates to the residential area. Then she fights Fordola with us, LB3ing her, instrumental in that victory.

After the main portion of the MSQ, Arenvald and the WoL would have failed to stop the tempering of the diplomats if not for her freeing Fordola. Decisions M'naago and Conrad would not have made, given their emotional feelings towards, "The Butcher."

Lyse was a big deal, she just didn't come off that way.

[Edax]

This is wrong. Play through again.

At Rhalgr's Reach when the Imperials storm the place and she staves off Fordola, this is what rouses Zenos to actually participate in combat. This leads to his first confrontation with the WoL, and his subsequent withdrawal of his troops. Though it's subtle, her one sided combat with Zenos indirectly stops the Resistance from being snuffed out right then and there. Had Zenos grown bored before the WoL arrived, he would have departed.

Anyone else could have done that.

Then she travels with the WoL to the Far East, and her next major event aside from beating up that Namazu swindler, is to stave off the Red Kojin alongside Alisae so that the WoL can fight Susano without interference.

Anyone else could have done that.

Then she meets and relates with the Domans, helping them come up with the will to throw off their shackles, though she takes a side seat after every person on the WoL's team prove themselves at Bardaam's Mettle. She was second to complete the Yol taming trial btw.

Anyone else could have done that. Everyone in the Scions was pro-Resist and Alisaie was a real firebrand and could have stepped in if Lyse wasn't there.

After Hien's arc, when we're back in Ala Mhigan territory she picks up again, rallying her own country men. Her beastmen blessing lets her come with us to open the gates to the residential area. Then she fights Fordola with us, LB3ing her, instrumental in that victory.

The beastman blessing is not unique to her and theoretically anyone could be given that, even Thancred. And if Lyse wasn't there Conrad or M'Naggo could have rallied their own countrymen.

After the main portion of the MSQ, Arenvald and the WoL would have failed to stop the tempering of the diplomats if not for her freeing Fordola. Decisions M'naago and Conrad would not have made, given their emotional feelings towards, "The Butcher."

I don't recall M'naago voicing an opinion on Fordola, but then again it's been awhile since I went through the story.

[Mhaeric]

Anyone else could have done that.

They didn't. Lyse did.

Anyone else could have done that.

They didn't. Lyse did.

Anyone else could have done that.

They didn't. Lyse did.

Repeating your argument over and over doesn't make it right, and I'm not just talking about those quotes from the last post. We get it. You don't like Lyse as a character for umpteen reasons. You're not alone. Lots of people don't think she's a good main character. But she is the main character. Period. Claiming that she's not the main character just makes you look crazy-pants.

[Edax]

They didn't. Lyse did.



They didn't. Lyse did.



They didn't. Lyse did.

Repeating your argument over and over doesn't make it right, and I'm not just talking about those quotes from the last post. We get it. You don't like Lyse as a character for umpteen reasons. You're not alone. Lots of people don't think she's a good main character. But she is the main character. Period. Claiming that she's not the main character just makes you look crazy-pants.

Just because Lyse has a participation ribbon doesn't make her the main character. The Warrior of Light was there the entire time and was more involved in the plot and actually had the antagonist's attention whereas conversely the antagonist didn't care about Lyse, the one you you claim as a main character. If Lyse was supposed to be the central character then the writing is even worse because the Antagonist barely acknowledges her, at the climax where he is defeated, Lyse's words barely even register for him, he may as well just be monologuing solely to the Warrior of Light. Again, what difference what it be if Lyse wasn't even there at the climax? Zenos dialogue don't even have to change during his final speech apart from the word "meaningless?"

[Lyse and Alphinaud run in.]

[Somehow, Zenos is not dead. He drags himself to his feet, spitting blood, and reaches for his sword.]

Zenos Yae Galvus: Hah…hah…hah… The hunter has indeed become the hunted.

Zenos Yae Galvus: And yet…there is only joy. Transcendent joy that I have never known. How invigorating, how…pure, this feeling.

Zenos Yae Galvus: Meaningless? Men die that others may live. Those who survive are stronger for it.

Zenos Yae Galvus: Not that you could ever understand. To have stood upon this great stage of fools…to have played my part to perfection…

Zenos Yae Galvus: Oh, this…this moment…let it be enshrined in eternity. My heart…beating out of time… So clear, so vivid, so real… So real.

[Mhaeric]

Okay, there's no arguing with stupid. You're being added to the ignore list then. Carry on.

[Edax]

I don't know if you realize how arbitrary your defense of this strange opinion sounds.

you look crazy-pants.

Okay, there's no arguing with stupid. You're being added to the ignore list then.

I was growing tired of your personal attacks anyway.

[Vyrerus]

Anyone else could have done that.

Oh yeah, sure, anyone else could have done that... except, no. No they could not have, since it's canonical that Lyse is stronger and more proficient in combat than all of the other people you mention by several degrees.

Also your logic on comparing the WoL to Lyse in regards to main character is kind of obtuse. The WoL is always central, that's part of the way FFXIV's story is framed, to make the player feel special. In regards to being a central NPC, Lyse very much is so, and that decision is always 100% arbitrary at time of writing, give or take some foreshadowing. The side characters always take a backseat and less meaningful role with regards to the main villain of the story arcs. Starting in ARR with Gaius van Baelsar. No other NPCs around, WoL central.

Heavensward with the evil pope trope villain. WoL central. NPCs sidelined.

Stormblood. WoL Central. NPCs sidelined, but present at the time of his demise, for the first time.

Shadowbringers. WoL Central. NPCs actively participate in villain's demise for the first time. Still sidelined.

You're fine to prattle on about Lyse being unimportant or replaceable, but truth is, she's not. She fills the role they've written for her, and when you put other people into that role, they'd have to write other characters to fill places they already had mapped out. The argument you present, as you present it, could be applied to literally any character in any work of fiction, "Yeah someone else coulda done this and maybe even done it better!" but that's not the point. They write in reasoning to for why they have characters take certain actions, and it generally ties into their past characterization. It's part of the direction the devs want things to go. You're fine to think she's a bad character, and that it's bad writing, but your argument about interchangeability has no weight.