Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[HadesNight]

Ah, yes. The grammar posters. I guess this is the part where you feel clever?

You obviously love being antagonistic, so I'll state that no; tank anxiety is no more real than healer anxiety or dps anxiety.

But you continue feeling special.

You literally used a synonym of the word to try and discredit the use of anxiety lmaoo. It's not a matter of feeling special but incredulous that you thought that was valid.

Not a single person in the last few pages of this thread are saying healers and dps don't feel anxiety by the way. Tankxiety is just a phrase used in MMOs to discuss that specific brand of it.

If responding in a way that doesn't agree with you is antagonistic, I have news for you man. The world will be rough. Don't be scarcastic and be like "being nervous" when it's a synonym of the word. Be more clever lol and people won't call you on your bs.

[TyrTry]

You literally used a synonym of the word to try and discredit the use of anxiety lmaoo. It's not a matter of feeling special but incredulous that you thought that was valid.

Not a single person in the last few pages of this thread are saying healers and dps don't feel anxiety by the way. Tankxiety is just a phrase used in MMOs to discuss that specific brand of it.

If responding in a way that doesn't agree with you is antagonistic, I have news for you man. The world will be rough. Don't be scarcastic and be like "being nervous" when it's a synonym of the word. Be more clever lol and people won't call you on your bs.

Lol. Okay. You obviously took my post far too seriously. I recommended taking a break. You seem to need it.

[HadesNight]

I was lucky when I first learned tanking I think, only a handful of instances of people being genuinely inconsiderate. Most of my impressions nowadays are from leveling alts, and witnessing how people behave with new tanks. Rescue pulling specifically is something I've seen frequently lately as an inconsiderate way to "deal" with new tanks; hence the thread.

And, let's just say the way this thread played out has kind of illustrated that being inconsiderate is a popular mindset in this community. I do think this is a great game, but for the most part I think it's a great game despite the community, not because of it.

Regardless, I do think I'll switch DCs if I start seriously getting into the endgame.

Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

[HadesNight]

Lol. Okay. You obviously took my post far too seriously. I recommended taking a break. You seem to need it.

Lol, thanks for the concern!

[iilan]

Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

Also from Aether here, and people are big on communication. I've found that most of the grief is when people don't talk to each other. In general, we're receptive to being asked to slow down, speed up, etc and will welcome more folks who like communicating in a multiplayer game =D

[RegularEggs]

Been following this thread a bit and it kinda baffles me why this is such an issue. While some of the people here made some really good points. I'll do my best to take my spin on the issue.

Let's set one thing straight. Besides the obvious troll feature of pulling people to death such as in e3, or pulling people through the bacon strip in e6, and i guess now pulling tanks into mobs, I also think Rescue has many benefits to it.

Let me paint some real in-game scenarios to paint a clearer picture.
For example, in e4s when the 2 evil earths spawn in the center. Most people don't even use sprint in combat, thus can barely make it to the safe spots. Having the healers rescue the person assigned to squares 1 or 4, etc. can literally be life or death sometimes.

Or Shinryu's/Leviathan's/Sophia's/etc. where having to position correctly can mean life or death. Maybe the DPS greeded, maybe it's their first time and they just don't know the mechanics. There are countless mechanics that are unforgiving and having a floor tank isn't helping anyone.
Or how about the countless times i've seen first time encounters in Nidhogg where the marked player for stack just runs around like a headless chicken. (ofc, they still inevitable run out after the initial hit, killing themselves) Rescue can come in clutch sometimes.
Side Note: There was just a recent post about boss mechanics being unclear and that being a floor tank doesn't feel good or help them understand boss mechanics. Rescue can potentially help with that.

Now you might've noticed, most of these scenarios are raid/trial/boss fight mechanics and unfortunately, some spells are just situataional as such. So, I don't see a forseeable future where Rescue will be removed.

Now let's break some of your talking points down.

Just turn it into a long CD single target barrier healers can cast on the party. That maintains the general intention while removing the terribly thought out, OBVIOUSLY exploitable mechanic.

First off, let's acknowledge just how problematic this is. Tanks are already abusing invulnerabilities to avoid tank swaps, let's go ahead and give them another one.

But let's talk dungeon runs. In a typical dungeon run, tanks SHOULD be using their invulnerability cooldown as part of their cooldown rotation. I get that most new players treat it as a "Oh shit!" button, but its a cooldown nonetheless; USE IT. Ofc, DK would be the only exception unless they're paired with a WHM. Now just imagine how much more braindead these pulls will be once tanks get TWO invulnerabilities during pulls.

Part 1

[RegularEggs]

[Cont...]

Not to mention, dungeons typically follow a 2 wtw trash pull into boss; repeat 3 times structure, and tanks can typically pull off 2 invulnerability pulls per dungeon. Once at the start, and again after the 2nd boss. Now just imagine how pulls will be and how rescue will be used if it was changed to an invincible barrier.

And no, a weak barrier will not work either. As mentioned before, most mechanics are unforgiving and in situations where Rescue would've kept them alive, a weak barrier will not bridge that difference. Hence, an invulnerable barrier is the only probable comparison. Because the invulnerable barrier is inherently bad for gameplay, arguably worse than troll pulls, Rescue's functionality will stay as is.

Everyone's perspective is different. If you're a healer who uses the ability competently with good intentions then that's your purview; you only see what you do and not how Rescue is generally used by other healers.

I group with a variety of healers and from my perspective the bad FAR outweighs any perceived good. The ability is predominately either a tool for trolls, or used in ways that hurt more than help.

If you all don't want to change the ability mechanically then we should let people opt out of having it used on them. Add a toggle and leave it on by default, so people who don't want to be Rescued have to actively disable it.

This is a clear case of the surviror bias fallacy. If healers had no need for rescuing you, then that means you're doing what is expected of you and or dodging mechanics correctly, hence why you don't see "good" rescues. If a healer is ever intentionally Rescuing you, maybe your first reaction should be "what did i do wrong?" instead of "what a f-ing troll." Besides, there are not that many things that can one shot you in dungeons, so there's hardly any particular "expoitable mechanic" that a healer can abuse to grief people unless they are purposely throwing themselves off the arena as well (Demon Wall in Ampador Keep) and at that point, you guys can all collectively vote to kick and report the healer.

In this case, you got pulled into more mobs because as most people can agree with, wtw is the norm or at least expected. Even at minimum ilvl, *most* dungeons can do wtw, with the exception of a few that while not impossible requires some skill and or game knowledge to understand limitations anyways. (Baelsar's Wall first pull, Bardam's Mettle first pulls with the red bears, Doma Castle with the Colossus-just to name a few)

Part 2

[RegularEggs]

[Cont...]

So, you say you're going to large pull, do it, then die to start off every run. Sounds like fun.

If I'm barely ilvl appropriate for the dungeon and not familiar with it I'm probably going to pull small. Tank sets the pace; that's just how it is. If the healer doesn't like the pace he can speak up, and if he asks for big pulls he'd better not suck.

You seem pretty confident in your ability to tank. You've even said it yourself right? That you're capably of keeping yourself alive even if the healer dies. With that in mind, i see no reason why you shouldn't be doing wtw pulls by default regardless of healer skill level since this is the mindset you already have. Clearly, you can, so why aren't you?

You even said in a later post that you dictate the competence of your team through the first pull. What does going slow accomplish? Much like negotiation, you start high and make your way down. Failing will eventually happen and you work around it.

Assuming a healer can handle a wall to wall pull is a gambit. I've gone literally 15-20 seconds without receiving a single heal on a wall to wall; if I wasn't severely overgeared I'd be dead. Healer should state exactly what they can handle at the beginning of the run if they have specific expectations. Otherwise the tank sets the pace, period.

That's all beside the point, though. Rescue shouldn't exist as it does.

I've always hated this argument. Tanks do not set the pace and the reason you guys don't understand is because you only see it from a slow tank's perspective. What about an elitist tank who expects competence from all players, even the new healer. He goes and pulls everything and inevitable die because the healer couldn't keep up. Or maybe the 2 DPS aren't doing their aoe rotations correctly and aren't killing the adds fast enough and burns out the healer MP. Tank has to slow down the run because of these players. Did the tank have full control the pace of the run? No, the team decides the pace of the run.

If you are deliberately slowing down the speed of the run you are arguably just as bad as those "forcing" you to pull more. But i digress.


Am I condoning the action of the healers pulling tanks into mobs? No. Do i think Rescue need to be removed for this sole reason? No. OP also pointed out that this happens a lot to newer tank and I ask, what did you do to help the situation? Did you tell the healer to stop? Or rather, did you try to help the tank understand his abilities/cooldown rotation to help him in later dungeons where wtw is expected? If you just left the dungeon without saying anything you're just as bad as the people you're complaining about.

[Fynlar]

If you're referring to me and my OP, then you are definitely missing points from more posters than just one. I never even said that. What I said is that unless you play a healer, it is difficult to get the full perspective of how Rescue is and can be used. This can be said for any job though and the abilities they use, so there really is no disputing this.

In your case, considering that you have healer mains all over this thread stating how the ability has been useful to them, added to the fact that you've leveled all three healers to max and have found next to no use for the skill says more about you than the ability itself.

I was not, I was referring to post #8.

I also never said Rescue has no use. I did say it is a bad ability. There's so much jankiness involved with its use that it ends up not being useful (or outright detrimental) in a lot of situations where it could otherwise have been useful, to the point where a lot of people just use it to troll. Case in point, this thread.

I also just don't agree with the idea of another player getting to dictate the movement/control of another player in general.

[Goji1639]

First off, let's acknowledge just how problematic this is. Tanks are already abusing invulnerabilities to avoid tank swaps, let's go ahead and give them another one.

I've adjusted my stance to simply wanting Rescue to be a toggle you can opt out of. This leaves the ability in tact for people who want it and takes it out of play for people who don't want to deal with it.

You seem pretty confident in your ability to tank. You've even said it yourself right? That you're capably of keeping yourself alive even if the healer dies. With that in mind, i see no reason why you shouldn't be doing wtw pulls by default regardless of healer skill level since this is the mindset you already have. Clearly, you can, so why aren't you?

You even said in a later post that you dictate the competence of your team through the first pull. What does going slow accomplish? Much like negotiation, you start high and make your way down. Failing will eventually happen and you work around it.

I'm confident in my ability to tank through nearly any situations with a Paladin, and that's mostly because of Clemency. No other tank has that kind of sustainability, so I operate more carefully with my DRK.

Also, this isn't a negotiation, it's a feeling out process. If you don't know what the group can handle you don't start out big, you start out with something manageable that will allow you to assess them.

If you are deliberately slowing down the speed of the run you are arguably just as bad as those "forcing" you to pull more. But i digress.

The tank sets the pace by default; meaning if no one says anything the tank is the one who's going to run ahead and pull based on whatever his personal mindset is. If the rest of the group wants input on what the tank decides to do they have to speak up.