Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Goji1639]

Interestingly enough, on Aether it FEELs like wall to wall is the norm. I mean, it's my absolute go to. Pop sprint right before a mob, a CD of choice, pick up the packs you can, position them and aoe them down. It seems really efficient but it only really happens like after that initial patch release. When everyone is geared. The first couple weeks are rough in new content (but also kinda exhilarating) when you wall to wall and don't know if you'll survive. After people are geared, you kinda just always survive anyway lol.

That's interesting about WoW, I've only played FFXIV but I've heard nothing but bad things about the toxic nature of the community. Our game kinda protects people in their right to be inconsiderate, so I almost wish for a bit of that transparency that other games have.

I mostly Wall to Wall myself, but it's mainly because I was a Paladin for most of my time tanking. Clemency is an amazing safety net for those times where you've pulled the entire area just to realize the healer and DPS aren't going to be much help. Switching to Dark Knight, however, has me more apprehensive, so I test pull the first couple groups. If everyone seems solid I'll pick up the pace, but I'm not going to just run ahead of everyone and die as the opening to most of my roulettes.

And yea, WoW's endgame at least can be pretty toxic, and I haven't really done Savages in this game, so maybe in that regard this community is better. As far as attitudes in general/casual content go, however, this is one of the worst games I've played. You'd think the world was ending if a roulette takes an extra 5 minutes, and the refusal to communicate is astounding to me. I've never had this specific conversation in any other game; where I had to fight the community over the prospect of asking for something at the beginning of a run.

[HadesNight]

I mostly Wall to Wall myself, but it's mainly because I was a Paladin for most of my time tanking. Clemency is an amazing safety net for those times where you've pulled the entire area just to realize the healer and DPS aren't going to be much help. Switching to Dark Knight, however, has me more apprehensive, so I test pull the first couple groups. If everyone seems solid I'll pick up the pace, but I'm not going to just run ahead of everyone and die as the opening to most of my roulettes.
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Ah I main DRK, I have since 3.x series! Just go for it! The blackest night is lovely and I find I have no trouble at all keeping myself alive when cycling through my CDs. I find that in our regular dungeons, even if I get down to 10k on a pull as long as I don't die, it completely works. I've had some excellent healers that ignore me until the last minute lol, and it's because they are burning down the packs. TBN is excellent for stalling some of the damage. Arms Length is also amazing now because it casts a slow when you get hit, stalling some of the damage in clutch moments until your TBN is back and the healer can get to you!

Clemency was completely nice but I feel like all the tanks are really well balanced now for solo survivablility. DRK traditionally was the "greedy" tank, that didn't have much in it's kit for the party but was great for keeping itself up, so abuse it lol. Clearly, I'm passionate about DRK xD

Your method of testing the first few groups works too! I made a macro I run that just asks a healers preference at the start and it says something like "thank you! Let's aoe them to the ground!" just to try and remind them to DPS as a far shot. Most of the time they don't but at least I tried in a kind way. It saves you time if you ask in the beginning what the healers preference is in regards to small or big pulls.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences! Honestly, this game is fantastic. I adore it and it's like, yeah some people are toxic assholes, they get off on it because this is the only place they can assert any form of control but they don't matter. I think if you're finding people are impatient, take it upon yourself to communicate your needs at the outset. It's totally ok to say "hey I'd like to single pull, I'm feeling out DRK". The people that want to leave will leave, and thats it. I think the answer is, if you find that a bad experience happens, you can't control other players no matter how frustrating it is, so do more on your end to try and over communicate. From a fellow tank main, I really feel like I've had good success on Aether by asking healers what pull sizes they want and thanking them for letting me know and keeping my CDs on cooldown. Hopefully your DC isn't full of inconsiderate people!

[Goji1639]

Ah I main DRK, I have since 3.x series! Just go for it! The blackest night is lovely and I find I have no trouble at all keeping myself alive when cycling through my CDs. I find that in our regular dungeons, even if I get down to 10k on a pull as long as I don't die, it completely works. I've had some excellent healers that ignore me until the last minute lol, and it's because they are burning down the packs. TBN is excellent for stalling some of the damage. Arms Length is also amazing now because it casts a slow when you get hit, stalling some of the damage in clutch moments until your TBN is back and the healer can get to you!

Clemency was completely nice but I feel like all the tanks are really well balanced now for solo survivablility. DRK traditionally was the "greedy" tank, that didn't have much in it's kit for the party but was great for keeping itself up, so abuse it lol. Clearly, I'm passionate about DRK xD

Your method of testing the first few groups works too! I made a macro I run that just asks a healers preference at the start and it says something like "thank you! Let's aoe them to the ground!" just to try and remind them to DPS as a far shot. Most of the time they don't but at least I tried in a kind way. It saves you time if you ask in the beginning what the healers preference is in regards to small or big pulls.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences! Honestly, this game is fantastic. I adore it and it's like, yeah some people are toxic assholes, they get off on it because this is the only place they can assert any form of control but they don't matter. I think if you're finding people are impatient, take it upon yourself to communicate your needs at the outset. It's totally ok to say "hey I'd like to single pull, I'm feeling out DRK". The people that want to leave will leave, and thats it. I think the answer is, if you find that a bad experience happens, you can't control other players no matter how frustrating it is, so do more on your end to try and over communicate. From a fellow tank main, I really feel like I've had good success on Aether by asking healers what pull sizes they want and thanking them for letting me know and keeping my CDs on cooldown. Hopefully your DC isn't full of inconsiderate people!

I was lucky when I first learned tanking I think, only a handful of instances of people being genuinely inconsiderate. Most of my impressions nowadays are from leveling alts, and witnessing how people behave with new tanks. Rescue pulling specifically is something I've seen frequently lately as an inconsiderate way to "deal" with new tanks; hence the thread.

And, let's just say the way this thread played out has kind of illustrated that being inconsiderate is a popular mindset in this community. I do think this is a great game, but for the most part I think it's a great game despite the community, not because of it.

Regardless, I do think I'll switch DCs if I start seriously getting into the endgame.

[HadesNight]

I was lucky when I first learned tanking I think, only a handful of instances of people being genuinely inconsiderate. Most of my impressions nowadays are from leveling alts, and witnessing how people behave with new tanks. Rescue pulling specifically is something I've seen frequently lately as an inconsiderate way to "deal" with new tanks; hence the thread.

And, let's just say the way this thread played out has kind of illustrated that being inconsiderate is a popular mindset in this community. I do think this is a great game, but for the most part I think it's a great game despite the community, not because of it.

Regardless, I do think I'll switch DCs if I start seriously getting into the endgame.

Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

[iilan]

Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

Also from Aether here, and people are big on communication. I've found that most of the grief is when people don't talk to each other. In general, we're receptive to being asked to slow down, speed up, etc and will welcome more folks who like communicating in a multiplayer game =D

[RegularEggs]

Been following this thread a bit and it kinda baffles me why this is such an issue. While some of the people here made some really good points. I'll do my best to take my spin on the issue.

Let's set one thing straight. Besides the obvious troll feature of pulling people to death such as in e3, or pulling people through the bacon strip in e6, and i guess now pulling tanks into mobs, I also think Rescue has many benefits to it.

Let me paint some real in-game scenarios to paint a clearer picture.
For example, in e4s when the 2 evil earths spawn in the center. Most people don't even use sprint in combat, thus can barely make it to the safe spots. Having the healers rescue the person assigned to squares 1 or 4, etc. can literally be life or death sometimes.

Or Shinryu's/Leviathan's/Sophia's/etc. where having to position correctly can mean life or death. Maybe the DPS greeded, maybe it's their first time and they just don't know the mechanics. There are countless mechanics that are unforgiving and having a floor tank isn't helping anyone.
Or how about the countless times i've seen first time encounters in Nidhogg where the marked player for stack just runs around like a headless chicken. (ofc, they still inevitable run out after the initial hit, killing themselves) Rescue can come in clutch sometimes.
Side Note: There was just a recent post about boss mechanics being unclear and that being a floor tank doesn't feel good or help them understand boss mechanics. Rescue can potentially help with that.

Now you might've noticed, most of these scenarios are raid/trial/boss fight mechanics and unfortunately, some spells are just situataional as such. So, I don't see a forseeable future where Rescue will be removed.

Now let's break some of your talking points down.

Just turn it into a long CD single target barrier healers can cast on the party. That maintains the general intention while removing the terribly thought out, OBVIOUSLY exploitable mechanic.

First off, let's acknowledge just how problematic this is. Tanks are already abusing invulnerabilities to avoid tank swaps, let's go ahead and give them another one.

But let's talk dungeon runs. In a typical dungeon run, tanks SHOULD be using their invulnerability cooldown as part of their cooldown rotation. I get that most new players treat it as a "Oh shit!" button, but its a cooldown nonetheless; USE IT. Ofc, DK would be the only exception unless they're paired with a WHM. Now just imagine how much more braindead these pulls will be once tanks get TWO invulnerabilities during pulls.

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[RegularEggs]

[Cont...]

Not to mention, dungeons typically follow a 2 wtw trash pull into boss; repeat 3 times structure, and tanks can typically pull off 2 invulnerability pulls per dungeon. Once at the start, and again after the 2nd boss. Now just imagine how pulls will be and how rescue will be used if it was changed to an invincible barrier.

And no, a weak barrier will not work either. As mentioned before, most mechanics are unforgiving and in situations where Rescue would've kept them alive, a weak barrier will not bridge that difference. Hence, an invulnerable barrier is the only probable comparison. Because the invulnerable barrier is inherently bad for gameplay, arguably worse than troll pulls, Rescue's functionality will stay as is.

Everyone's perspective is different. If you're a healer who uses the ability competently with good intentions then that's your purview; you only see what you do and not how Rescue is generally used by other healers.

I group with a variety of healers and from my perspective the bad FAR outweighs any perceived good. The ability is predominately either a tool for trolls, or used in ways that hurt more than help.

If you all don't want to change the ability mechanically then we should let people opt out of having it used on them. Add a toggle and leave it on by default, so people who don't want to be Rescued have to actively disable it.

This is a clear case of the surviror bias fallacy. If healers had no need for rescuing you, then that means you're doing what is expected of you and or dodging mechanics correctly, hence why you don't see "good" rescues. If a healer is ever intentionally Rescuing you, maybe your first reaction should be "what did i do wrong?" instead of "what a f-ing troll." Besides, there are not that many things that can one shot you in dungeons, so there's hardly any particular "expoitable mechanic" that a healer can abuse to grief people unless they are purposely throwing themselves off the arena as well (Demon Wall in Ampador Keep) and at that point, you guys can all collectively vote to kick and report the healer.

In this case, you got pulled into more mobs because as most people can agree with, wtw is the norm or at least expected. Even at minimum ilvl, *most* dungeons can do wtw, with the exception of a few that while not impossible requires some skill and or game knowledge to understand limitations anyways. (Baelsar's Wall first pull, Bardam's Mettle first pulls with the red bears, Doma Castle with the Colossus-just to name a few)

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