Geomancer

[GucciSan]

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But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

[MirronTulaxia]

But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

[BasicBlake]

And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

I don't know if i would consider the phrase "if it can't be added into a role it's never been before and not be too similar to something else it shouldn't be added" to be that valid. Just put it somewhere else... The argument is Qi of Water/Wind/Stone and Malediction of Water/Wind/Stone being too similar to Wind/Stone for white mage I personally think is a very valid reason to not have it be a cohealer with white mage honestly. It would be like adding Sage or Devout or whatever that class is called in the offshoot tactics games as a healer.

This is going to come off really weird but bear with me, or adding Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer as a caster. You would now have two classes enchanting a blade with magic in the same role. You'll argue and say "But why would mystic knight be a caster?" which would be countered with "Geomancer has never been a healer" so the argument is valid. Geomancer and white mage both healing would be like red mage and mystic knight/rune fencer both being in the caster role. They are both great classes and it would be great to have them all in game, just not stepping on eachother's toes.

The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja would be closer if all three of them had multiple of the same abilities but just a different name.

As for one of the Far Eastern melee, wasn’t Samurai considered for tank at one point? Not in a “dancer healer” aspect but ACTUALLY considered but it never ended up as a tank because it didn’t fit the class and it’s role?

[MirronTulaxia]

Snap.

1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.

[BasicBlake]

1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.

A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

[MirronTulaxia]

A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

1. No job has been a healer outside of White Mage though. Scholar certainly wasn't known for being one. You've suggested Time Mage as a healer, and the only heal it has to its name is Regen. You're just being hypocritical.

2. I mean, outside of Limits I wouldn't consider any job to be something. Though you raise a funny point in that Aerith certainly feels very much like a Geomancer, talking to the planet and such (was even her discussed job class).

3. You miss the point still. Rune Fencer being a Caster would still not be the same thing as a Red Mage. The "job fantasy" is different. You keep reducing jobs to extremely broad generalizations. And in terms of roles when it comes to DPS I don't really think anything should be anything. It's why I made the point about Dancer.

4. Given it was likely intended as a tank in FFXI, it's got precedence. Certainly not like Squall was tank like.

[BasicBlake]

Actually Mirron please don’t respond to what I wrote, we aren’t getting anywhere.

[GucciSan]

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It’s not that the spells are similar; it’s that they’re both Jobs that ask nature spirits for help. No other Job in the game does this. It’s WHM’s unique aesthetic monopoly. And SCH isn’t a druid. It never has anything to do with the forest elementals and it doesn’t attune to nature for more power like WHM and GEO both would. As a WHM they taught you about the importance of the Gridania elementals, and how you need to draw upon them for healing power. That was the whole theme they built from 1-70. You’d get essentially the same lessons with GEO except with Tengu.

SCH and SMN are literal examples of what we’ve been suggesting. They sat at a design meeting and thought, “These two Jobs are similar, let’s split them to avoid redundancy”, or “Hey, we have this Job, let’s make a Healer/DPS variant and take this same idea in a whole new direction”. And it works better this way, because now for people that are really into the idea of pet classes/Summons in Final Fantasy, they now have two methods in which to achieve that in opposite ends of the spectrum. It provides variety, consistency, and avoids redundancy all at the same time.

[Archwizard]

Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added.

Based on the context of GucciSan's post, your response reads as though you're saying "If Geomancer is too (aesthetically or mechanically) similar to WHM, a healer, then it shouldn't be added to the game period, even as a DPS."

Which... has no other way to be read, but I can't wait for you to tell me I'm misinterpreting you after this.

Frankly, I find that entirely unreasonable of a conclusion, especially when you're simultaneously arguing that otherwise, there would be no reason not to add it as a healer. But you're totally not advocating for it as a healer. In fact you're not advocating for anything at all!

Lemme give some examples for why this premise is wrong:

• Red Mage and Scholar have each been classical mixes of Black Mage and White Mage, with Scholar leaning heavily on magic and Red Mage balancing it with melee. As a result, Red Mage's brand of magic shares aesthetic similarities with each of the other jobs listed, but is mechanically separated enough to fit in its own niche as a caster DPS.
• Samurai and Ninja both are melee DPS jobs with heavy Eastern themes, but mechanically and lore-wise have significant enough differences to justify separate positions within the roster.
• At a stretch, one could also argue that Dark Knight's form of magic appears to have the same properties as Scholar's attack spells, being focused on dark energy, decay, and the disruption of biological processes. Similarly you could argue that Bard and Dancer both utilize entertainment to channel buff effects, and Gunbreaker and Machinist both utilize ballistic weapons, with Machinist even giving up reload mechanics to Gunbreaker.
• Oh, and of course, Scholar and Summoner each explicitly utilize the same properties for their respective familiars/Egis and share similar mechanics, but are separated by role, exactly like what we've been saying with regards to parallels between GEO and WHM.

As well I feel like you don't realize

Based on your overuse of this phrase whenever you post and your contrarian attitude throughout this thread, you appear to have either a very high opinion of yourself, a very low opinion of everyone else, or both.

Perhaps if everyone else is "missing the point" of the things you say, maybe consider the common factor is... you?

[BasicBlake]

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It's not worth it, he has stated numerous times that he "doesn't care the role that it is" he's just here to argue whatever statement you say. He's here to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

No matter who tries to explain what people mean by class fantasy and mechanics he will just say "I don't see it that way so it doesn't exist". They could add the 4th caster who's main mechanic revolved around carbuncle and he'd say that's fine because summoner have the other egis.

ANYWAY. I'm more interested in talking about Geomancer, not arguing with Mirron about semantics and definitions and his perceptions of older FF games.

Has anyone found out why Kyo only focuses on wind and water? His school for Geomancy is now functional and he is teaching them in the art of "Wind and Water" only. I guess it could come down to mainland Geomancy vs Hingashi but it seems odd for a class so focused on only three elements as is, to have an npc open a school only focusing on two of them.

I have been looking all over but I can't actually find anything but it's really irritating me that we have no explanation (yet).