Geomancer

[MirronTulaxia]

1. In the context of what you said I wouldn't take Blue Mage as being a new role, so for me at least your comment of "a new role" was out of nowhere. That's why I figured you were talking about something from another post, not the one you quoted.

2. I've said my main point multiple times, I'm honestly not sure how much clearer I can be. After a certain point the fault in communication isn't on my end but on yours. That you think I'm arguing it should or shouldn't be a healer says that you still aren't getting it, and I really don't know how many ways to reframe the same basic point of "It could be a healer and it wouldn't be weird" until you get that's my stance. That I'm arguing, again, against a stance that I've seen that to me reads as "it can't be anything but a Caster".

3. And I find your thought process difficult to parse so... woo? I'm not sure what you hope to gain by stating your opinion on my writing style, especially again as I don't find yours to be crystal clear. As far as breaking down into smaller arguments that's... kind of how discussions like this go? It's a branching tree. Core argument branches into smaller ones because of how they relate to the core argument, and so on and so forth down the line until you're ten points separated from the original main one. As I've said, both in post 167 and earlier in this thread (to say nothing of my posts where I'm not exceedingly explicit, these are simply examples of what I consider as point blank explicit as I can be without insulting your intelligence), my main points are pretty straight forward. I'm not going to say every single argument directly relates to them, but it's also possible you're reading things as arguments when they're simply comments. Saying "Red Mage and Dancer have multiple roles they could have been" is not an argument, it's simply a comment, but your reply to that comment reads as though you see it as an argument. I certainly have had arguments on Dancers specifically, and that's ultimately tied still to the overall discussion going on with regards to Geomancers, even if it's a couple points removed from the core argument.

[BasicBlake]

To be fair Mirron, most people agree with your point that yes, they have left room for it to be a healer if they wanted to go that route.

Most people arguments with you have been about you thinking they don’t care about their own franchise class fantasy when it comes to classes. And your comments on the lore team just using resources just because, as if the teams don’t have any interaction with eachother and just toss out their work and say “here you go” when there is open communication the whole time.

So yes we all know and agree it “could” be a healer. We just don’t think it would be a good idea based on what they have presented. And there are much better fits for the role.

[Eric_Riot]

To: MirronTulaxia

What do you want the Geomancer to be in ffxiv?

[MirronTulaxia]

To be fair Mirron, most people agree with your point that yes, they have left room for it to be a healer if they wanted to go that route.

Most people arguments with you have been about you thinking they don’t care about their own franchise class fantasy when it comes to classes. And your comments on the lore team just using resources just because, as if the teams don’t have any interaction with eachother and just toss out their work and say “here you go” when there is open communication the whole time.

So yes we all know and agree it “could” be a healer. We just don’t think it would be a good idea based on what they have presented. And there are much better fits for the role.

1. I certainly don't get the feeling that they agree with that concept. I'm fairly sure you yourself have said things along the lines of it not working as a healer and it can only be a Caster. I could go digging through your posts if you'd like and find all instances of that.

2a. With regards to "not caring about class fantasy", my argument is again that it's purely subjective, and ultimately something made up as a term here, specifically. We have no idea how exactly the dev team feels about jobs. I would argue that at least in terms of how much they care about it being similar to past games they'll bend things so it fits the game rather than care too much about how well it fits the fantasy. I can point to multiple jobs like that.

2b. My point with the lore team is that we already know that the lore team doesn't take precedence when it comes to these things. The developers come up with an idea they like, and then the lore team figures out how to make it happen. Coupled with that, again, is the fact that none of the things you've said indicate Geomancers are Casters in terms of lore read that way to me. Boss characters almost never do healing as a focus. Enemy mobs only really have dedicated healers if they're basically other Spoken. Kyokuho could fix the barrier because the guy is worse at being a Geomancer than his grandfather was. And the fact that the one actual Geomancer we have is using a fraction of the knowledge really says they could introduce a new Geomancer and explain any lore confusion if it differs from him (given he has all of three spells not exactly hard to just fit those in though either) by saying "well he only knew a bit about being a Geomancer and you have a fancy new soul stone".

3. And I don't agree. To me, again, saying Geomancers are so similar to White Mages that they have to be another job is, if we're going to talk about job fantasy, a travesty. No job should be so similar in terms of job fantasy that you can mistake it for another unless it's something like White Mage to Devout, and even then there is an FF where they managed to make the two different in notable ways. Geomancer is not a direct upgrade to White Mage, or vice verse, they have no direct connection. So the job fantasy for them is entirely different, and that isn't dependent on the role, the weapon, or the elements.

To: Eric

Beyond wanting it to have something to do with terrain I'm not sure I have any strong preferences for anything with Geomancer. My point has never been "I want Geomancer to be a healer" but again "it's not unreasonable for Geomancer to be a healer". In terms of possible jobs I consider it better than the current popular proposal for Healer but that's really about the extent of my feelings n the matter.

[GucciSan]

snip

But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

[BasicBlake]

snip

I have also personally said "I can see where you are coming from but I disagree because X".

[MirronTulaxia]

But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

[BasicBlake]

And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

I don't know if i would consider the phrase "if it can't be added into a role it's never been before and not be too similar to something else it shouldn't be added" to be that valid. Just put it somewhere else... The argument is Qi of Water/Wind/Stone and Malediction of Water/Wind/Stone being too similar to Wind/Stone for white mage I personally think is a very valid reason to not have it be a cohealer with white mage honestly. It would be like adding Sage or Devout or whatever that class is called in the offshoot tactics games as a healer.

This is going to come off really weird but bear with me, or adding Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer as a caster. You would now have two classes enchanting a blade with magic in the same role. You'll argue and say "But why would mystic knight be a caster?" which would be countered with "Geomancer has never been a healer" so the argument is valid. Geomancer and white mage both healing would be like red mage and mystic knight/rune fencer both being in the caster role. They are both great classes and it would be great to have them all in game, just not stepping on eachother's toes.

The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja would be closer if all three of them had multiple of the same abilities but just a different name.

As for one of the Far Eastern melee, wasn’t Samurai considered for tank at one point? Not in a “dancer healer” aspect but ACTUALLY considered but it never ended up as a tank because it didn’t fit the class and it’s role?

[GucciSan]

snip

It’s not that the spells are similar; it’s that they’re both Jobs that ask nature spirits for help. No other Job in the game does this. It’s WHM’s unique aesthetic monopoly. And SCH isn’t a druid. It never has anything to do with the forest elementals and it doesn’t attune to nature for more power like WHM and GEO both would. As a WHM they taught you about the importance of the Gridania elementals, and how you need to draw upon them for healing power. That was the whole theme they built from 1-70. You’d get essentially the same lessons with GEO except with Tengu.

SCH and SMN are literal examples of what we’ve been suggesting. They sat at a design meeting and thought, “These two Jobs are similar, let’s split them to avoid redundancy”, or “Hey, we have this Job, let’s make a Healer/DPS variant and take this same idea in a whole new direction”. And it works better this way, because now for people that are really into the idea of pet classes/Summons in Final Fantasy, they now have two methods in which to achieve that in opposite ends of the spectrum. It provides variety, consistency, and avoids redundancy all at the same time.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snap.

1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.