Geomancer

[BasicBlake]

1. And Ishgardian Astrologians wound up looking entirely differently from what we got. Which is kind of my point. Though even if they focus only on those elements it still doesn't make it the same thing, because again, point five talks about Red Mage. It literally uses elements from other jobs, and shares things that at first blush look similar to Black Mage (balancing two different things, and uses two of the same elements while being in the same role). Obviously it didn't turn out the same though in spite of sharing similarities because using the same element is pretty minor when all is said and done.

No they didn’t. Because Ishgardian Astrologians were nothing but a couple of npc’s at a camp, there wasn’t a full expansion+ of story and dungeons for them. So it’s not that similar. We have quest, backstory, a book, multiple dungeons, that is a lot more to retcon opposed 3 npc’s you have no interaction with.

And yes I know how red mage works I have been playing one since 2006. It plays exactly how you expect it to. And it uses black and white magic just like it always has. That is much different that the lore book saying “this class is very similar to conjurer.”

[MirronTulaxia]

1. They were still present, whether you can agree they were majorly present or not is irrelevant. We still got a second version, it's totally plausible to happen here. It also happened with Gunblades.

2. None of what I propose is a retcon.

3. Red Mages in XIV only popped up in 2017, so you're off by about ten years. Every game does Red Mages (and really any job) at least a little bit different.

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

[BasicBlake]

1. They were still present, whether you can agree they were majorly present or not is irrelevant. We still got a second version, it's totally plausible to happen here. It also happened with Gunblades.

2. None of what I propose is a retcon.

3. Red Mages in XIV only popped up in 2017, so you're off by about ten years. Every game does Red Mages (and really any job) at least a little bit different.

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

They were present but there was nothing to change so that makes your point moot. They had no casting, no lore, weren’t involved in anything. They got an outfit change, that is the argument you are so set on?

Go open your lore book, it says that they are similar to conjurers I’m looking right at the paragraph. I never said they were the same I said the book calls them similar.

FFXI came out before 2017, is what I was getting at, you were explaining to me how a class I main is played I was just saying “I know”.

I really do have to ask, are you just arguing to argue? Because this once again is going nowhere.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

1. My point is that if they didn't need to change anything then they didn't need to make a new job. They did, which clearly indicates it's a bit more complex than you're implying.

2. If they're similar to Conjurers then that's simply an argument for them to be Healers you realize.

3. Red Mages predate FFXI, and again, each iteration of them is different. XI's Red Mages have little in common with XIV's in spite of being the same job because the systems of their respective games are different.

4. None of what I've said is arguing to argue. Pointing out that Geomancers can more than stand on their own is not arguing to argue.

Snip.

1. I mean, I wouldn't say the job fantasy of White Mage is the same as the job fantasy of Geomancer though, so you're not really winning any argument there. I wouldn't call a Druid the same thing as a Geomancer either, but White Mage is pretty divorced from the original Conjurer at this point in terms of aesthetics.

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

[Seraphor]

1. I mean, I wouldn't say the job fantasy of White Mage is the same as the job fantasy of Geomancer though, so you're not really winning any argument there. I wouldn't call a Druid the same thing as a Geomancer either, but White Mage is pretty divorced from the original Conjurer at this point in terms of aesthetics.

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

They're not the same, but they are similar, bordering on too similar.
Like Machinist and Corsair, or Warrior and Viking.

The games lore pretty much establishes that Geomancy/Onmyoji are the eastern equivalents of Conjury/Thaumaturgy.
They're not 'the same', but to use both Geomancy and Conjury as the base of similar jobs, both healers, would be redundant.

Which is why Geomancer would suit a Caster DPS much better, as they can differentiate it from Conjurer.

[MirronTulaxia]

They're not the same, but they are similar, bordering on too similar.
Like Machinist and Corsair, or Warrior and Viking.

The games lore pretty much establishes that Geomancy/Onmyoji are the eastern equivalents of Conjury/Thaumaturgy.
They're not 'the same', but to use both Geomancy and Conjury as the base of similar jobs, both healers, would be redundant.

Which is why Geomancer would suit a Caster DPS much better, as they can differentiate it from Conjurer.

Again, you're making a subjective argument. I wouldn't call it any more similar than any other mage job myself. You're using your personal feelings as evidence for what should happen, and then balking at the same thing being done by someone else. If you're allowed to say they're too similar then I'm allowed to say they aren't. If you want to try and turn it into something objective then feel free, but if so then I'll go back to pointing out similarities to other jobs and quickly it'll turn into a subjective argument again. At the end of the day there isn't any objective reason that Geomancer would play the same as White Mage, that it would hit the same themes as White Mage, or any number of similar arguments. Subjectively you may feel it's the same, but ultimately you need to acknowledge that as simply personal feeling, no more or less valid than anyone else on the matter.

[GucciSan]

2. The real critical flaw with your argument is that you're ultimately making a subjective argument here. You see Conjurer and Geomancer as the same thing. I don't. WoW has Druid and Shaman for instance. To you those are the same thing. To Blizzard they're different. To others a myriad of different answers. FF has a number of jobs that some would say is the same as another, but others might say they're different. How you feel does not mean it's absolute. To me they do not represent the same "job fantasy" (which is a pointless distinction to me).

It may not be important to you, but it’s clearly important to SE, who by their consistent Job additions have attempted to make each Job within their respective roles feel aesthetically different from one another. It’s for this same reason you don’t have two Jobs sharing a common theme in the same role:

You have a:
Holy Tank
Berserker Tank
Darkness Tank
Squall

Nuke Mage
Plague/Pet Mage
Hybrid Battlemage

Nature/Holy Healer
Pet Healer
Space/Time Healer

etc.


Adding GEO to the healer slot would then tick two boxes for nature themed healer in the same role. Even if WHM doesn’t have that element anymore, their connection with nature is still a huge part of their identity only ending at level 70+. For the sake of variety, another nature themed healer is something they would probably want to avoid doing again; especially after 6 years of no new healer at all. For as many people that would be no doubt excited to play GEO, there would be just as many, if not more that would be extremely disappointed about getting a Healer that’s very similar to one we’ve already had theme wise at one point.

I guess the one question I'm genuinely curious about is what to you makes GEO stand apart from WHM? What does GEO thematically or aesthetically offer that WHM doesn't already at one point?

[GucciSan]

4. The lore book didn't say they're the same thing as Conjurer though. Using the same elements is not the same thing as being the same job. Again, we can just look at Red Mage, where it uses some of the same elements, same role, and even has a balance feature like Black Mage. That's a lot more overlap than a hypothetical Geomancer as, if nothing else, it's unlikely it would use lilies as a gimmick. Since Red Mage can be different from Black Mage Geomancer could be different from White Mage, especially when they don't even use the same elements anymore (and really two spells and a wonky ability is not the same thing as an entire job).

But they do use the same elements though; the best way to think of it is if they decided to add a Cleric to the game, but made it a tank with a hammer; you now have two tanks fulfilling the Holy Protector Knight theme. They’re technically both different on paper, with different skills with different applications, but the Job Fantasy is essentially the same, one just originated from a different location. People say it’d be WHM 2.0 because thematically speaking it kind of is; they both tune to their respective elements (The Elementals and Tengu IIRC) with strong ties to nature. One just loses theirs but it’s still at the core of their Job’s origins. They could rewrite WHM lore so they never had their druid CNJ start but they might as well focus that work on a new Job that doesn’t bleed into one that we already have.

And with RDM there may be some overlap with BLM in terms of spell usage but the key difference is the Class Fantasy. You play BLM if you want to feel like a sorcerer with big spells; you play RDM if you want to feel like a swashbuckling mage with quick fire spells and baller style. There are completely different feelings each Job offers that caters to people looking for that specific thing. It’s a lot harder to separate the class fantasy of two healers with ties to nature.

[BasicBlake]

But they do use the same elements though; the best way to think of it is if they decided to add a Cleric to the game, but made it a tank with a hammer; you now have two tanks fulfilling the Holy Protector Knight theme. They’re technically both different on paper, with different skills with different applications, but the Job Fantasy is essentially the same, one just originated from a different location. People say it’d be WHM 2.0 because thematically speaking it kind of is; they both tune to their respective elements (The Elementals and Tengu IIRC) with strong ties to nature. One just loses theirs but it’s still at the core of their Job’s origins. They could rewrite WHM lore so they never had their druid CNJ start but they might as well focus that work on a new Job that doesn’t bleed into one that we already have.

And with RDM there may be some overlap with BLM in terms of spell usage but the key difference is the Class Fantasy. You play BLM if you want to feel like a sorcerer with big spells; you play RDM if you want to feel like a swashbuckling mage with quick fire spells and baller style. There are completely different feelings each Job offers that caters to people looking for that specific thing. It’s a lot harder to separate the class fantasy of two healers with ties to nature.

Your cleric comparison is way better than what I had put. This is what I was trying to get out there. Thank you! Bless.

[SeikishiYuuki]

Objective facts-
Geomancer uses Wind, Water and Earth magic as well as having an affinity towards barriers and purifying evil.

White Mage uses Wind, Water and Earth magic an has an affinity towards light and divine magic.

These are distinctly similar thematically.

More facts- Geomancer has regularly been mentioned as recently as a few weeks ago in lore, flavor text and job quests and isn't some idle speculation.

There are many pieces of evidence that lend to the idea of Geomancer not being a healer and while there are some arguments for why it could they're fairly outweighed by the DPS side of the scale. So if you were to have the option of placing in a job to fill a similar thematic role to an existing job or giving them a unique position in another role for which they're already coded, which would you chose?